Is a Fons Honorum Necessary?

[Pete Jode]

Hi All,

I have a question about the Fons Honoreum and whether the Herrenmeister Prince Oskar of Prussia (Johanniter) could be considered one.
Can he confer knighthoods if he is no longer a prince in a monarchy?
Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank all.

[N***@gmail.com]

Post by Pete Jode
Hi All,
I have a question about the Fons Honoreum and whether the Herrenmeister Prince Oskar of Prussia (Johanniter) could be considered one.
Can he confer knighthoods if he is no longer a prince in a monarchy?
Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank all.

Generally, to people who care about such things, the head of a dynasty that was forcibly disinherited retains it's status as a fons honorum. For the purposes of a knightly order, a dynasty that had a private order before losing it's throne retains the right to keep that order.

Nick

[e $$iri k_i]

finally finally

a question was asked without the answer being "yes, as u suspected, it's a bogus order..u can see more of the ridiculous titles and costumes at the following website.."

[Pete Jode]

Post by e $$iri k_i
finally finally
a question was asked without the answer being "yes, as u suspected, it's a bogus order..u can see more of the ridiculous titles and costumes at the following website.."

Hi, thank you for the information could you repost the link to the website?

[e $$iri k_i]

Post by Pete Jode

Post by e $$iri k_i
finally finally
a question was asked without the answer being "yes, as u suspected, it's a bogus order..u can see more of the ridiculous titles and costumes at the following website.."

Hi, thank you for the information could you repost the link to the website?

I don't think anyone posted a link to be "reposted". I've just seen so many posts that talk about the titles of the supposed mail order patriarch, micronation, or ressurected XYZ, "is not for real is it?" ; "is it bogus, like I'm thinking" with a link so hysterical it's incredulous that anyone would even ask.

All that means I appreciated your post. I don't know about the prince you referenced, but I have a few links to orders and such...

http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Teutonique/
http://www.eohsj.net/
http://www.constantinian.org.uk/

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

All right, the first one claims to be the Teutonic Knights, or Deutschritter to be exact. The did quite some research on the site and many of the arms are spot on. But at one point in the recent history they seem to be going on a strange tangent.
The Teutonic Knight's Order had a state in Western Poland, fought some wars with, for and against them and then established themselves as the forebears of the later state of Prussia. Hence the black cross on white - their emblem - being also the flag of Prussia until the short-lived German Empire was created with Prussian guns and money.
So these people, using a French site, are most certainly NOT the order.

Next the Holy Order is a self-styled offshoot of the Johanniter Orden, which takes its pedigree from a self-styled patriach. There was a similar outfit back in the 90s which had some almost legitimacy through digging up the charter of an order under the Latin Empire of Constantinople. They cleverly laid claim to territories the Byzantine Empire had given to crusaders in return for them swearing fealty to the Emperor under the Orthodox patriarchate. Borderline legal, because the patriarchate does in fact exist and seems to have endorsed the resurection of the order at the time. However, a later head of the order seems to have had a falling out with the patriarch who then disavowed the entire outfit.

The last one may be legit in as far as the pedigree of Francis I is concerned. But of course the Kingdom of the two Sicily(ies) was very short-lived and not really that long ago. I am uncertain if it is in fact connected to the House of Bourbon though, and if it isn't, then it's bogus.

To the best of my knowledge there are only a hand full of ways to get a legitimate knighthood by paying for it, these days, and only three of those are hereditary.
And none of them advertises online or actively looks for outside members, while all of them involve lengthy acts and procedures.

If you really want an illustrious name, marry one, or buy a feudal title.

Cheers,
Robert dCZ

[Pete Jode]

Post by Robert de la Cueva Ziegler
All right, the first one claims to be the Teutonic Knights, or Deutschritter to be exact. The did quite some research on the site and many of the arms are spot on. But at one point in the recent history they seem to be going on a strange tangent.
The Teutonic Knight's Order had a state in Western Poland, fought some wars with, for and against them and then established themselves as the forebears of the later state of Prussia. Hence the black cross on white - their emblem - being also the flag of Prussia until the short-lived German Empire was created with Prussian guns and money.
So these people, using a French site, are most certainly NOT the order.
Next the Holy Order is a self-styled offshoot of the Johanniter Orden, which takes its pedigree from a self-styled patriach. There was a similar outfit back in the 90s which had some almost legitimacy through digging up the charter of an order under the Latin Empire of Constantinople. They cleverly laid claim to territories the Byzantine Empire had given to crusaders in return for them swearing fealty to the Emperor under the Orthodox patriarchate. Borderline legal, because the patriarchate does in fact exist and seems to have endorsed the resurection of the order at the time. However, a later head of the order seems to have had a falling out with the patriarch who then disavowed the entire outfit.
The last one may be legit in as far as the pedigree of Francis I is concerned. But of course the Kingdom of the two Sicily(ies) was very short-lived and not really that long ago. I am uncertain if it is in fact connected to the House of Bourbon though, and if it isn't, then it's bogus.
To the best of my knowledge there are only a hand full of ways to get a legitimate knighthood by paying for it, these days, and only three of those are hereditary.
And none of them advertises online or actively looks for outside members, while all of them involve lengthy acts and procedures.
If you really want an illustrious name, marry one, or buy a feudal title.
Cheers,
Robert dCZ

Do you consider the Johanniter, Knights of Malta and the Venerable Order of St. John to be legitimate?
Are there any other legitimate groups in the USA?

Cheers

[Edward Hillenbrand]

The Knights of Malta is an acive, Catholic order of Knighthood. They donate a lot of cash in the US and elsewhere.

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

Very much so. The Johanniters are a German offshoot of the Knights of Malta, both of which are legitimate organisations. In fact the Maltese Order is represented in the UN and the grandmaster is considered a de jure sovereign with diplomatic status - as are his ambassadors.
The Johanniters are active in ambulance, first aid, hospitals and other related services and have number of hereditary honour knighthoods, and both them and the Maltese have it within their gift to create knights and barons.
The Catholic church can do likewise, by the way, with the Pope being able to create other titles (Compte, Principes, and Dux) as well. But to the best of my knowledge none of these 'divine' title creations have taken place during the last two papacies.
Still, the gift persists and the Knights of Christ are still active in many countries around the world, too.

[Doug Powell]

Post by Robert de la Cueva Ziegler
Very much so. The Johanniters are a German offshoot of the Knights of Malta, both of which are legitimate organisations. In fact the Maltese Order is represented in the UN and the grandmaster is considered a de jure sovereign with diplomatic status - as are his ambassadors.
The Johanniters are active in ambulance, first aid, hospitals and other related services and have number of hereditary honour knighthoods, and both them and the Maltese have it within their gift to create knights and barons.
The Catholic church can do likewise, by the way, with the Pope being able to create other titles (Compte, Principes, and Dux) as well. But to the best of my knowledge none of these 'divine' title creations have taken place during the last two papacies.
Still, the gift persists and the Knights of Christ are still active in many countries around the world, too.

Isn't there a Russian branch, too?

[Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard]

Post by Doug Powell
Isn't there a Russian branch, too?

There are several private bodies claiming a "Russian" stem of the Order of Malta / Order of St. John. None of these have any continuous historical connection with the Order. None of them are recognized by the Order of Malta or the St. John Alliance (which unites the four non-Catholic Orders of St. John).

Best wishes,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

No there is no Russian flavour. The Maltese might operate in Russia, but there is no Russian Johanniters or Knights of Malta organisation.

I'm not sure Russia even existed during the crusades, which is the origin of both these organsiations. the Johanniters are the order of St. John that operated hospitals in the holy land, and the Maltese took over from the disbanded Knights Templar if memory serves right.

[Pete Jode]

Post by N***@gmail.com

Post by Pete Jode
Hi All,
I have a question about the Fons Honoreum and whether the Herrenmeister Prince Oskar of Prussia (Johanniter) could be considered one.
Can he confer knighthoods if he is no longer a prince in a monarchy?
Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank all.

Generally, to people who care about such things, the head of a dynasty that was forcibly disinherited retains it's status as a fons honorum. For the purposes of a knightly order, a dynasty that had a private order before losing it's throne retains the right to keep that order.
Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the info. I'm interested in doing a bit more research on the status of a disinherited dynasty.
Is there a book or website that you would recommend covering this topic?

Cheers

[Doug Powell]

Post by Pete Jode

Post by N***@gmail.com

Post by Pete Jode
Hi All,
I have a question about the Fons Honoreum and whether the Herrenmeister Prince Oskar of Prussia (Johanniter) could be considered one.
Can he confer knighthoods if he is no longer a prince in a monarchy?
Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank all.

Generally, to people who care about such things, the head of a dynasty that was forcibly disinherited retains it's status as a fons honorum. For the purposes of a knightly order, a dynasty that had a private order before losing it's throne retains the right to keep that order.
Nick

Hi Nick,
Thanks for the info. I'm interested in doing a bit more research on the status of a disinherited dynasty.
Is there a book or website that you would recommend covering this topic?
Cheers

Pete,
Here is something you might want to have a look at.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/gotha.htm

I appears to contain all of the royalty of Europe, both regnant and non-regnant, and Brazil.

[Pete Jode]

Post by Doug Powell

Post by Pete Jode

Post by N***@gmail.com

Post by Pete Jode
Hi All,
I have a question about the Fons Honoreum and whether the Herrenmeister Prince Oskar of Prussia (Johanniter) could be considered one.
Can he confer knighthoods if he is no longer a prince in a monarchy?
Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thank all.

Generally, to people who care about such things, the head of a dynasty that was forcibly disinherited retains it's status as a fons honorum. For the purposes of a knightly order, a dynasty that had a private order before losing it's throne retains the right to keep that order.
Nick

Hi Nick,
Thanks for the info. I'm interested in doing a bit more research on the status of a disinherited dynasty.
Is there a book or website that you would recommend covering this topic?
Cheers

Pete,
Here is something you might want to have a look at.
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/gotha.htm
I appears to contain all of the royalty of Europe, both regnant and non-regnant, and Brazil.

Doug,

The site seems to have a lot of good info.
Thanks for the link. You may find this Washington Post story interesting. It's titled "Meet the world's other 25 royal families" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/07/22/meet-the-worlds-other-25-royal-families/

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

Actually the Johanniter-order is not in the gift of the Prince, even if he was the head of the order. Instead the Johanniterorden has its own system to convey honours and bestow ranks. Some of these are in fact inheritable.

[Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard]

Post by Robert de la Cueva Ziegler
Actually the Johanniter-order is not in the gift of the Prince, even if he was the head of the order. Instead the Johanniterorden has its own system to convey honours and bestow ranks. Some of these are in fact inheritable.

The first part is true: The Order is not a dynastic order but a corporate body most recently reorganized by Prussia in 1852-53 and whose decorations are instituted by the president of the Federal Republic of Germany in 1959 in extension of Federal law of 1957.

The last part I do not know what to make of. What do you mean by "Some of these are in fact inheritable."?

Best wishes,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

Post by Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
The last part I do not know what to make of. What do you mean by "Some of these are in fact inheritable."?

There is a rank of Ehrenritter (knight of honour) which is passed through the generations in select families of German nobility.

[Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard]

That is incorrect. There is a rank of Ehrenritter (Knight of Honour), but a) it is the lowest rank in the Order (introduced after the reorganization in 1852/53), and b) it certainly is not and never has been hereditary (although many families have Rechtsritter or Ehrenritter in successive generations).

Best wishes,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

Post by Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
it certainly is not and never has been hereditary (although many families
have Rechtsritter or Ehrenritter in successive generations).

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

Cheers,
Robert dCZ

[Pete Jode]

Post by Robert de la Cueva Ziegler

Post by Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
it certainly is not and never has been hereditary (although many families
have Rechtsritter or Ehrenritter in successive generations).

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.
Cheers,
Robert dCZ

What is meant by the gift of the prince? Is that the power to make someone a knight?

Thanks.

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

Post by Pete Jode
What is meant by the gift of the prince?

Something being "in the gift" of a sovereign means that he has the ability to do something. For example, knight someone, create nobles, bestow honours, issue grants, etc. All these are considered as being 'in his gift'.

[Pete Jode]

Post by Robert de la Cueva Ziegler

Post by Pete Jode
What is meant by the gift of the prince?

Something being "in the gift" of a sovereign means that he has the ability to do something. For example, knight someone, create nobles, bestow honours, issue grants, etc. All these are considered as being 'in his gift'.

Ok Robert thanks for clearing that up for me. So just to clarify the prince over their order does not have the ability to give their members a knighthood.
Is that the correct? If so you you consider them to be more of a fraternal order than a chivalric one?
Thank you.

[Robert de la Cueva Ziegler]

Post by Pete Jode
So just to clarify the prince over their order does not have the ability to give
their members a knighthood.

The original order only accepted member of the nobility in the first place. So knighthoods were bestowed after apprenticeships upon entrance into the order.
But to answer your question, no the Prince can not bestow knighthoods to members of the order by his own choice. I do believe however, that he does have several other knighthoods he could bestow if he so wished. But these would not become part of your name or confer nobility as under law there is no such thing as a noble estate anymore in Germany. In other words, even someone did become knight of this-and-that by being knighted, his name would not change.
Only one of the two dozen of reigning sovereigns can bestow titles that become part of your name. Of course, Americans aren't allowed to accept foreign honours, and Germans can call themselves whatever they want, as long as there is no attempt of deceit and as long as they identify themselves with their proper name in all affairs involving government departments.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Robert.

[Larry Slight]

Post by Pete Jode
So just to clarify the prince over their order does not have the ability to give
their members a knighthood.

The original order only accepted member of the nobility in the first place.
So knighthoods were bestowed after apprenticeships upon entrance into the
order.
But to answer your question, no the Prince can not bestow knighthoods to
members of the order by his own choice. I do believe however, that he does
have several other knighthoods he could bestow if he so wished. But these
would not become part of your name or confer nobility as under law there is
no such thing as a noble estate anymore in Germany. In other words, even
someone did become knight of this-and-that by being knighted, his name would
not change.
Only one of the two dozen of reigning sovereigns can bestow titles that
become part of your name. Of course, Americans aren't allowed to accept
foreign honours, and Germans can call themselves whatever they want, as long
as there is no attempt of deceit and as long as they identify themselves
with their proper name in all affairs involving government departments.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Robert.

One small error. The ban on foreign honors in the US Constitution actuall
states: "No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no
Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the
Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title,
of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State." Citizens
other than those affected by the above may accept anything they wish.

L.E.Slight