Verify accuracy on Charles-Alexander de Lorraine?

[Stella]

Hello everyone-

A while back I started a thread about a coat of arms on some Chinese
Export porcelain plates that turned out to belong to Charles Alexander
of Lorraine. I'm very grateful for the resulting helpful information,
links, discussion and pointers that enabled me to continue my
research, and I'd like to vet what I've compiled for accuracy with you
all.

The synopsis for the plates has to be brief for what I need it for;
here's what I have so far:

"Famille rose armorial plates from a service belonging to His Royal
Highness Prince Charles-Alexandre Emanuel de Lorraine, (b XXXX, d
1780). Son of Duke Leopold I of Lorraine; brother of Holy Roman
Emperor Francis Stephen I of Lorraine (who also held the titles of
Duke of Lorraine, and Grand Duke of Tuscany); brother-in-law to Marie
Theresia (Archduchess and later ruling Empress of Austria) and uncle
to Austrian Emperors Joseph II and Leopold; uncle to Queen
Marie-Antoinette of France. Awarded the Order of the Golden Fleece in
1729; appointed Lieutenant Governor General of the Austrian
Netherlands in 1744; General of the Imperial Austrian troops and in
1761, Grandmaster of the Teutonic Order.

This rare pattern represents the historic alliance of the Austrian
House of Hapsburg with the French House of Lorraine. A cup and saucer
with this pattern are in the Chinese Pavillion's collection at the
Royal Museum of Art and History in Belgium, and are featured on pages
28-29 in their publication "Porcelain armoriees du Pavillon Chinois"
by Chantal Kozyreff and Henry Maertens de Noordhout, 1998. It is also
illustrated in "Porcelaines Chinoises "Compagnies des Indies" décorées
d'armoiries Belges", page 61. The porcelain service was ordered prior
to 1761 when Charles Alexander changed his coat of arms, however it
could have been ordered any time between 1745 and 1760. It's possible
these plates may be some of the very rare ones imported through the
Austrian Ostende Company which preceded the Swedish East India
Company. While the AOC was officially abolished in 1731; it did not
stop sending trade ships to China until well into the 1740s and may
have kept the business up even later per written records of the AOC's
factory in Bengala and shipping shipping information on which ships
were actually anchored outside Canton.

The arms on these very thinly potted plates are assigned with the
coronet of a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, surrounded by the Golden
Fleece and within a pavillon charged with the arms of Lorraine."

I don't know what SAR stands for an have not been able to find a
reliable date of birth for Charles-Alexander. I know Francis Stephen
had to cede the ducky of Lorraine prior to marrying Marie Theresia and
acquired Tuscany at a later date; but if I have any of the titles or
people listed inaccurately, I'd appreciate being corrected!

Thank you and with best regards,
Stella

[Francois R. Velde]

Thank you Anton...I've been trying to research the difference between
a Ducal crown and a Royal crown proper. From what I can tell, the coat
of arms depicted on the plates has a crown that represents the Holy
Roman Empire, with the cross and orb on top, so wouldn't that mean
that pattern had to be after Charles Alexander's brother Francis
Stephen attained the HRE?

A ducal crown would be open (no arches); a royal crown would have 8 arches,
of which 5 visible. What you have is the coronet of a prince of the Holy
Roman Empire.

Or is the closed crown with the orb and cross representative of
Leopold's changing his arms to show same when he resumed the use of
the title of the King of Jerusalem in 1700? And that his sons CA and
FS would use that crown in their coat of arms?

Only the duke would use the royal crown. Derek's evidence indicates that,
probably from 1744 on, C-A used a royal crown, at the same time as he enjoyed
the style of "Royal Highness". So this suggests the plate dates from
before 1744 (but no earlier than 1729).

[Stella]

Thank you for explaining the components of the crowns; I've been
searching for images of them online since I don't have any heraldry
books myself. (Shocked gasp from the audience!) So the fur lining
would be upturned on the rim for both an Archducal crown and the HRE
crown?

One loose end in this theory nags at me...you had posted a while back
about a book:

"Inventaire des archives de la maison de Charles de Lorraine / par
André Vanrie. Bruxelles : Archives générales du Royaume, 1981.

The only entry for "China porcelain" in the index is for a receipt for
an order
of porcelain from India and China, from the 1760s."

Any info on when in the 1760s? 1760, or, say, 1768? As hard-paste
porcelain was more readily available in Europe at that time, why would
his household still order porcelain from China, especially with
Derek's note of C-A owning a porcelain factory in Tervuren? If to
commemorate his changing his arms in light of the Teutonic order, why
not have Meissen make the service, or some local company? Puzzling to
me.

I've tried contacting the Royal Museum of Art and History in Belgium,
with the Chinese Pavillion that houses the cup and saucer that matches
the pattern on my plates; however despite three separate emails they
have never responded. Guess I'll try calling them from America. Also
it will be interesting to contact the museum at the former palace of
C-A and see what other porcelain examples they have from C-A's
household, unless it was all completely sold at auction. That museum
is a great lead for further research, with splendid info from there
already!

On a porcelain-related historical note it's exciting to move the date
of the plates earlier to where they were very likely to have been
shipped on the Austrian Ostende Company...

What is the date of birth for C-A? I've come across some online that
would make him Francis' older brother, and that can't be right, can
it?

with thanks and best regards,
Stella

[Francois R. Velde]

Post by Stella
What is the date of birth for C-A? I've come across some online that
would make him Francis' older brother, and that can't be right, can
it?

From this (usually reliable) site:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/lorraine/lorraine5.html

Charles Alexander Emanuel, Stattholder of the Austrian Netherlands, *Lunéville
12.12.1712, +Tervueren 4.7.1780; m.Vienna 7.1.1744 Archdss Maria Anna of Austria
(*14.9.1718 +16.12.1744)

[Marc Baronnet]

I unfortunately don't have the time to undertake the research myself,
but these are a few pointers :

- The best reference book on the house of Lorraine is :
Georges POULL, La Maison ducale de Lorraine, Presses universitaires de
Nancy, Nancy (France), September 1991, 624 pages, ISBN :
2-84480-517-0.
I do not have a copy, so I cannot check about C-A.

- Three places you could get in touch with, with tight connections
with the house of Lorraine (I do not know about their ability to speak
English) :
1. Musée lorrain (former ducal palace)
http://www.mairie-nancy.fr/pls/mn/docs/culture_sport_loisirs/088_p_musee_lorrain.htm
2. Archives départementales (archives of Lorraine)
http://www.archivesdefrance.culture.gouv.fr/fr/annuaire/DAFad54.html
Mr Hubert Collin, who works there, is the unrivaled expert on archives
of Lorraine.
3. Château de Lunéville (later ducal palace)
http://www.ville-luneville.fr/histoire/tradition/musee.htm
It held a unique collection of china before it was badly damaged by a
fire this winter.

I am sure any of the 2 museums (Musée lorrain, and Château de
Lunéville) could be interested in acquiring this piece. It is a very
unusual depiction of the arms of Lorraine (crown and mantling
particularly).

MB

Post by Francois R. Velde

Post by Stella
What is the date of birth for C-A? I've come across some online that
would make him Francis' older brother, and that can't be right, can
it?

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/lorraine/lorraine5.html
Charles Alexander Emanuel, Stattholder of the Austrian Netherlands, *Lunéville
12.12.1712, +Tervueren 4.7.1780; m.Vienna 7.1.1744 Archdss Maria Anna of Austria
(*14.9.1718 +16.12.1744)

[Stella]

Great links to the museums, Marc, thank you so much. I will have a
friend (who handles the French language far better than I, but then
who doesn't?) write some letters to them very soon. Your time in
collecting the info and posting it is much appreciated.

-Stella

Post by Marc Baronnet
I unfortunately don't have the time to undertake the research myself,

[Stella]

Dear Francois and List-

I contacted David and Angela Howard, the authors of the Chinese
Armorial Porcelain Volume 1 and Vol II, the "bible" for Chinese
armorial porcelain collectors. The volumes cover (mainly English) coat
of arm patterns on porcelain and they've studied and written on the
subject for a few decades now. Still, my money's on you folks, so to
speak! :-)

This morning, Angela Howard emailed me confirming the earlier date of
the porcelain that I have, but they have a very different take on who
the pattern belongs to. They're insisting it's a ducal crown and that
the pattern is that of a Duke of Lorraine. I think I need to travel to
Europe and get copies of illustrations showing Francis and
Charles-Alexander's known coats of arms through the 1729 to 1744
period, or someone else's coat of arms showing a coronet of a prince
of the HRE for comparison.

***(From the Howards)
Charles VI of Lorraine was Holy Roman Emperor from 1711-40. At his
death in 1740 his son, Francis I, became Duke of Lorraine - his
principal title until 1745. (The title of HRE was at that time held
by a distant cousin, Charles VII, Elector of Bavaria - quite different
arms - who died in 1745.)

Francis I had married Maria Theresa of Austria and in 1745 became Holy
Roman Emperor (he was also a Knight of the Golden Fleece and of St.
Esprit - orders are shown on the porcelain).

At some date after 1745 (although not immediately) he relinquished his
title as Duke of Lorraine to his brother Charles.

The date of the service illustrated in the Brussels catalogue should
be
c.1740 and has the arms of the Duke of Lorraine beneath a ducal cap -
NOT the Holy Roman Emperor. [I have written to numerous people over
the last 15 years that, from the style of the porcelain, the date is
NOT after 1745. It is possible to demonstrate a number of services of
this style to c.1735-45.]

While we agree that the service is definitely before 1745 - I'm not
sure we
do about the owner!

a) Before 1740 the Lorraine title was merged with that of the Holy
Roman
Emperor - Charles VI (arms different).

b) After 1745 the Lorraine title was again merged with that of the
HRE (arms different).

c) From 1740-45 Francis was Duke of Lorraine - not his brother
Charles.

d) Later Charles was Duke of Lorraine BUT the porcelain would have
been quite different in style by then, in my opinion.

e) It is, of course, possible that Charles used the arms of the Duke
of
Lorraine before he was entitled to, but I see no reason to assume
that.

But the porcelain is DEFINITELY c.1740.

***(end Howard message)

Best regards,
Stella

Post by Francois R. Velde

Thank you Anton...I've been trying to research the difference between
a Ducal crown and a Royal crown proper. From what I can tell, the coat
of arms depicted on the plates has a crown that represents the Holy
Roman Empire, with the cross and orb on top, so wouldn't that mean
that pattern had to be after Charles Alexander's brother Francis
Stephen attained the HRE?

A ducal crown would be open (no arches); a royal crown would have 8 arches,
of which 5 visible. What you have is the coronet of a prince of the Holy
Roman Empire.

Or is the closed crown with the orb and cross representative of
Leopold's changing his arms to show same when he resumed the use of
the title of the King of Jerusalem in 1700? And that his sons CA and
FS would use that crown in their coat of arms?

Only the duke would use the royal crown. Derek's evidence indicates that,
probably from 1744 on, C-A used a royal crown, at the same time as he enjoyed
the style of "Royal Highness". So this suggests the plate dates from
before 1744 (but no earlier than 1729).

[Francois R. Velde]

Post by Stella
Dear Francois and List-
I contacted David and Angela Howard, the authors of the Chinese
Armorial Porcelain Volume 1 and Vol II, the "bible" for Chinese
armorial porcelain collectors. The volumes cover (mainly English) coat
of arm patterns on porcelain and they've studied and written on the
subject for a few decades now. Still, my money's on you folks, so to
speak! :-)
This morning, Angela Howard emailed me confirming the earlier date of
the porcelain that I have, but they have a very different take on who
the pattern belongs to. They're insisting it's a ducal crown and that
the pattern is that of a Duke of Lorraine. I think I need to travel to
Europe and get copies of illustrations showing Francis and
Charles-Alexander's known coats of arms through the 1729 to 1744
period, or someone else's coat of arms showing a coronet of a prince
of the HRE for comparison.
***(From the Howards)
Charles VI of Lorraine was Holy Roman Emperor from 1711-40. At his
death in 1740 his son, Francis I, became Duke of Lorraine - his
principal title until 1745. (The title of HRE was at that time held
by a distant cousin, Charles VII, Elector of Bavaria - quite different
arms - who died in 1745.)

I'm sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Francis I was not the son of Charles
VI, but his son-in-law. He did not become duke of Lorraine in 1740, but in
1729 (as Francis III of Lorraine) at the death of his father and predecessor
Leopold. and he had *ceased* to be duke of Lorraine in 1737.

Post by Stella
Francis I had married Maria Theresa of Austria and in 1745 became Holy
Roman Emperor (he was also a Knight of the Golden Fleece and of St.
Esprit - orders are shown on the porcelain).

No, the Saint-Esprit does not appear on the porcelain and, no, he was not
a knight of the Saint-Esprit.

Post by Stella
At some date after 1745 (although not immediately) he relinquished his
title as Duke of Lorraine to his brother Charles.

No, he did not. His brother was never duke of Lorraine. The duchy of
Lorraine went in 1737 to Stanislas, and at his death in 1766 Lorraine
reverted to France.

Post by Stella
The date of the service illustrated in the Brussels catalogue should
be
c.1740 and has the arms of the Duke of Lorraine beneath a ducal cap -
NOT the Holy Roman Emperor.

Your correspondent has confused the coronet of PRINCE of the Holy Roman
Empire with that of Holy Roman Emperor. No one says that the crown on
the plate is the latter, only the former.

A prince of the Holy Roman Empire is a rank within the Empire; there
were dozens of such princes.

Post by Stella
[I have written to numerous people over
the last 15 years that, from the style of the porcelain, the date is
NOT after 1745. It is possible to demonstrate a number of services of
this style to c.1735-45.]
While we agree that the service is definitely before 1745 - I'm not
sure we
do about the owner!
a) Before 1740 the Lorraine title was merged with that of the Holy
Roman
Emperor - Charles VI (arms different).

No, no, no, no, completely false. Lorraine was an independent duchy
(although nominally part of the Holy Roman Empire, like other states).
In 1737 it was ceded by its last holder, Francis, to the deposed
king of Poland Stanislas (and father-in-law of the king of France),
while Francis received the grand-duchy of Tuscany in compensation.
He retained the title of duke of Lorraine and the coat of arms of
Lorraine (as did his descendants) as mark of his lineage.

The arms on your plate cannot be those of Francis I after 1737, because
after he became grand-duke of Tuscany, he added a quarter with the arms
of Medici; he retained that quarter even after his election as Emperor
in 1745: see
Loading Image...

They cannot be the arms of Francis I before 1737, because before that
date he used (as duke of Lorraine) a closed crown with 8 arches, 5 visible.

The arms are those of Lorraine, however, so they must be a close relative
of the duke of Lorraine, and there is only one, Charles-Alexandre.

[Francois R. Velde]

Further leads on C-A de Lorraine. An article in _Apollo_ Dec. 1987
(vol. 126, no 310, pp. 432-34) by Robert Oresko describes three
exhibits held in Belgium in 1987, as part of Europalia 1987, on
Charles-Alexandre de Lorraine. the most extensive one was in his
palace in Brussels; it was organized by Claudine Lemaire (affiliation
unknown). It had a lot of porcelain, some of it from the
Bundesmobilierverwaltung (of Austria, I presume) which owns
a lot of objects from C-A de Lorraine, because he made emperor
Joseph II his univeral heir. Another exhibit was held at
the Cultureel Centrum van de Vlaamse Gemeenschap Alden Biesen,
in Bilzen, and was curated by Luc Duerloo; it centered more on
his political career and his role as grand-master of the
Teutonic order. A third, smaller one, was in the castle
of Mariemont.

[Derek Howard]

Post by Stella
Hello everyone-
A while back I started a thread about a coat of arms on some Chinese
Export porcelain plates that turned out to belong to Charles Alexander
of Lorraine. I'm very grateful for the resulting helpful information,
links, discussion and pointers that enabled me to continue my
research, and I'd like to vet what I've compiled for accuracy with you
all.
The synopsis for the plates has to be brief for what I need it for;
"Famille rose armorial plates from a service belonging to His Royal
Highness Prince Charles-Alexandre Emanuel de Lorraine, (b XXXX, d
1780). Son of Duke Leopold I of Lorraine; brother of Holy Roman
Emperor Francis Stephen I of Lorraine (who also held the titles of
Duke of Lorraine, and Grand Duke of Tuscany); brother-in-law to Marie
Theresia (Archduchess and later ruling Empress of Austria) and uncle
to Austrian Emperors Joseph II and Leopold; uncle to Queen
Marie-Antoinette of France. Awarded the Order of the Golden Fleece in
1729; appointed Lieutenant Governor General of the Austrian
Netherlands in 1744; General of the Imperial Austrian troops and in
1761, Grandmaster of the Teutonic Order.
This rare pattern represents the historic alliance of the Austrian
House of Hapsburg with the French House of Lorraine. A cup and saucer
with this pattern are in the Chinese Pavillion's collection at the
Royal Museum of Art and History in Belgium, and are featured on pages
28-29 in their publication "Porcelain armoriees du Pavillon Chinois"
by Chantal Kozyreff and Henry Maertens de Noordhout, 1998. It is also
illustrated in "Porcelaines Chinoises "Compagnies des Indies" décorées
d'armoiries Belges", page 61. The porcelain service was ordered prior
to 1761 when Charles Alexander changed his coat of arms, however it
could have been ordered any time between 1745 and 1760. It's possible
these plates may be some of the very rare ones imported through the
Austrian Ostende Company which preceded the Swedish East India
Company. While the AOC was officially abolished in 1731; it did not
stop sending trade ships to China until well into the 1740s and may
have kept the business up even later per written records of the AOC's
factory in Bengala and shipping shipping information on which ships
were actually anchored outside Canton.
The arms on these very thinly potted plates are assigned with the
coronet of a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, surrounded by the Golden
Fleece and within a pavillon charged with the arms of Lorraine."
I don't know what SAR stands for an have not been able to find a
reliable date of birth for Charles-Alexander. I know Francis Stephen
had to cede the ducky of Lorraine prior to marrying Marie Theresia and
acquired Tuscany at a later date; but if I have any of the titles or
people listed inaccurately, I'd appreciate being corrected!
Thank you and with best regards,
Stella

For sale (disclaimer: I have no interest other than academic in this sale)
N° 173 — (Charles de Lorraine, Preciosa) - Assiette profonde aux armes de Charles de Lorraine.
[ Chine, Compagnie des Indes, époque K'ien Long [c. 1750-1761]].

PORCELAINE BLANCHE (diam. : 25 cm, H. : 4 cm), armoiries polychromes peintes dans le creux, guirlande florale dorée dans la descente et 4 guirlandes florales dorées sur les ailes, filet doré sur le pourtour (lég. fêlure sur le côté g.).

Armoiries aux grands quartiers de Lorraine avec collier de la Toison d'Or et manteau d'hermine, le tout timbré d'une couronne princière.
Service à dater entre les années 1750 et avant 1761, année de la nomination du prince à la Grande Maîtrise de l'Ordre teutonique. Il est précisément décrit dans le "Catalogue des effets précieux de feue Son Altesse Royale le duc Charles de Lorraine et de Bar [...]". Brux., Boubers, 1781, vente du 21 mai, p. 69, n° 105 (voir notre vente, supra) et consistait en 117 pièces : 2 terrines, 18 plats ronds dont 2 grands, 8 saladiers, 20 assiettes à soupe, 43 assiettes, 14 "petits plats de dessert ou soucoupes", 2 rafraîchissoirs, 4 saucières, 6 salières. Il existait également un service à déjeuner composé de 38 pièces dont 1 théière, 1 pot à lait, 11 tasses à chocolat, 12 soucoupes, 12 tasses à thé avec soucoupes.
Provenance : [Jean Jadot] (sans mention ni cachet).
• Exposition : "Charles-Alexandre de Lorraine. Gouverneur général des Pays-Bas autrichiens". Europalia Autriche. Brux., KBR, 1987, VII-18, pp. 344 (avec reprod.).
http://www.godts.com/en/auction/live-auction-of-13th-december/catalogue/10/
Photo of the plate at
Loading Image...