The Arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith, Lord High Treasurer - Help Needed

[Rock Vacirca]

My previous post on how many coats of arms can one man hold, was prompted by what I have read on the arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith (1355-1424). This is what I have found so far, and if anyone can help translate the blazon in Latin it would be much appreciated.

I am researching the early life of the Bishop, of which little is known (born in Menthorp, and raised in Bubwith, both in the East Riding of Yorkshire, parentage unknown), and I am hoping by correctly identifying his arms it may help in identifying his parentage.

These are sources found so far:

Sources for the Arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith

Lives of the Bishops of Bath
By Stephen Hyde Cassan

p. 208
(Concerning the Alms House and Hospital of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith)

Arms.--The chapel of the hospital has, or had, in its window, what are said to be the arms of Bubwith: Sable, a bend Or, between six plates. These arms differ from those which Wharton ascribes to Bishop Bubwith. "Armaejus in fenestrâ quadam bibliothecæ Ecclesiæ Wellensis in vitro imperfecte depicta manent, viz 4 folia viridca figuram quadratam efficientia et claudentia; arma enim portavit in scuto. Arg. Fasciam evectam inter 3 quadratas corollas virides, quarum singulæ ex quatuor foliis iliceis sunt efformatæ.

In a note in the "Catalogue Episcoporum Bath. et Well. Fra. Godwin." appended to "Johannis de Whelhamstede Chronicon,"[ Bodl. 8vo. A. 3. 15. Jur. vol II. p. 679] we find the following:- "Bubwithi insignia ad oram depicta sic dicimus incondite fortasse, sed tamen ut res intelligi possit. Arg. a fesse engrailed Sable between three chaplets of holly leaves, proper; each chaplet consisting of four leaves placed fretwise."

The Arms, however, ascribed to him, in the Heralds' College, are:--Argent, a fess dancetée between two chaplets, Sable.


p. 212
Tomb.--"On the north side of the nave, beneath the 2nd. arch from the transept, is the monumental chapel of Bishop Bubwith, who was interred there in 1424. This elegant little structure was erected by himself, and endowed for the support of a chantry-priest to pray for his soul. In the upright, it consists of two divisions of pannelled arches, surmounted by a cornice ornamented with trailing vine-branches and other sculpture. The tracery of the upper division is divided into many parts: and on each side, and over the two door ways, which open to the north and south, it is finely pierced. At the east end, in the inside, are various niches, with rich canopies now greatly mutilated; and at the west end, is a shield of arms, namely, that of the See impaling Bubwith. The latter a fesse engrailed between three groups of conjoined holly leaves, four in each."[ Britton's Hist. Wells Cathedr. p. 110]


The Wiener manuscript of Ulrich Richental's Chronicle of the Council of Constance[ A supplement to Arms and people in Ulrich Richental's Chronik des Konzils zu Konstanz 1414-1418, Steen Clemmensen, 2011]

100 dns fridericus eps bathonienis Nicholas Bubwith, Bp.Bath & Wells D: 52
2 staves in saltire; fess engrailed betw 2 annulets {BO, ASS} som 04

If anyone has any thoughts or can supply any further information on the above, it would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Rock

[Derek Howard]

Post by Rock Vacirca
My previous post on how many coats of arms can one man hold, was prompted by what I have read on the arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith (1355-1424). This is what I have found so far, and if anyone can help translate the blazon in Latin it would be much appreciated.
I am researching the early life of the Bishop, of which little is known (born in Menthorp, and raised in Bubwith, both in the East Riding of Yorkshire, parentage unknown), and I am hoping by correctly identifying his arms it may help in identifying his parentage.
Sources for the Arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith
Lives of the Bishops of Bath
By Stephen Hyde Cassan
p. 208
(Concerning the Alms House and Hospital of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith)
Arms.--The chapel of the hospital has, or had, in its window, what are said to be the arms of Bubwith: Sable, a bend Or, between six plates. These arms differ from those which Wharton ascribes to Bishop Bubwith. "Armaejus in fenestrâ quadam bibliothecæ Ecclesiæ Wellensis in vitro imperfecte depicta manent, viz 4 folia viridca figuram quadratam efficientia et claudentia; arma enim portavit in scuto. Arg. Fasciam evectam inter 3 quadratas corollas virides, quarum singulæ ex quatuor foliis iliceis sunt efformatæ.
In a note in the "Catalogue Episcoporum Bath. et Well. Fra. Godwin." appended to "Johannis de Whelhamstede Chronicon,"[ Bodl. 8vo. A. 3. 15. Jur. vol II. p. 679] we find the following:- "Bubwithi insignia ad oram depicta sic dicimus incondite fortasse, sed tamen ut res intelligi possit. Arg. a fesse engrailed Sable between three chaplets of holly leaves, proper; each chaplet consisting of four leaves placed fretwise."
The Arms, however, ascribed to him, in the Heralds' College, are:--Argent, a fess dancetée between two chaplets, Sable.
p. 212
Tomb.--"On the north side of the nave, beneath the 2nd. arch from the transept, is the monumental chapel of Bishop Bubwith, who was interred there in 1424. This elegant little structure was erected by himself, and endowed for the support of a chantry-priest to pray for his soul. In the upright, it consists of two divisions of pannelled arches, surmounted by a cornice ornamented with trailing vine-branches and other sculpture. The tracery of the upper division is divided into many parts: and on each side, and over the two door ways, which open to the north and south, it is finely pierced. At the east end, in the inside, are various niches, with rich canopies now greatly mutilated; and at the west end, is a shield of arms, namely, that of the See impaling Bubwith. The latter a fesse engrailed between three groups of conjoined holly leaves, four in each."[ Britton's Hist. Wells Cathedr. p. 110]
The Wiener manuscript of Ulrich Richental's Chronicle of the Council of Constance[ A supplement to Arms and people in Ulrich Richental's Chronik des Konzils zu Konstanz 1414-1418, Steen Clemmensen, 2011]
100 dns fridericus eps bathonienis Nicholas Bubwith, Bp.Bath & Wells D: 52
2 staves in saltire; fess engrailed betw 2 annulets {BO, ASS} som 04
If anyone has any thoughts or can supply any further information on the above, it would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Rock

I suspect the arms in the window of the alms hospital chapel are either inserted in error or have been misattributed. (Sable a bend Or between 6 roundels is attributed in a couple of later, Tudor, armorials as Storton or Sourton, obviously a variant on, or error for, the usual arms of Stourton of a bend between 6 fountains, see DBA, i, 391).

The description given from Wharton, that in the Catalogue Episcoporum note, and the Bishop's tomb at Wells all are compatible with Argent a fess engrailed between three chaplets each of four holly leaves for Nicholas Bubwith.

The unreferenced arms said to be at the Heralds' College are similar though not identical but we should take this with caution without a reference but the statement that there were two chaplets suggests that, if it has any basis, there may have been some copying between that source and the record of the Council of Constance. My caution though about the mention of the College is because the arms do not turn up at all in the Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary. None of the four volumes indexes Bubwith which is unfortunate, and I cannot see any fess engrailed (or otherwise) between 2/3 chaplets/annulets/leaves in volume 3 where it should appear.

Regretably Nicholas Bubwith does not appear to have left surviving documents bearing his seal or at least none are mentioned in the Discovery catalogue or Birch's BM Seals or the PRO seal list, and Wells Cathedral archives are currently closed to enquiries.

My preference is for accepting as correct the arms on his tomb, though there is always the small risk that these have been repainted and two chaplets were visible in sinister and the arms were interpreted as having borne three before impalement.

It would be interesting to hear back if you make any further progress with this case.

Derek Howard

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Rock Vacirca
My previous post on how many coats of arms can one man hold, was
prompted by what I have read on the arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith
(1355-1424). This is what I have found so far, and if anyone can help
translate the blazon in Latin it would be much appreciated.

<snip for brevity>

Post by Rock Vacirca
The Arms, however, ascribed to him, in the Heralds' College,
are:--Argent, a fess dancetée between two chaplets, Sable.

<more snip>

Post by Rock Vacirca
If anyone has any thoughts or can supply any further information on
the above, it would be most appreciated.

I have just looked through the indices to the four volumes of The
Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary and found no Bubwith at
all. So I would suggest that all arms are spurious. You might ask the
College of Arms where they got the above arms from.

I have also looked through the index made by IHGS
<http://www.achievements.co.uk/family_tree_names/armigerous_ancestors_database.html>
to the visitations armigers and there is no Bubwith there either.

[1***@gmail.com]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Rock Vacirca
My previous post on how many coats of arms can one man hold, was
prompted by what I have read on the arms of Bishop Nicholas Bubwith
(1355-1424). This is what I have found so far, and if anyone can help
translate the blazon in Latin it would be much appreciated.

<snip for brevity>

Post by Rock Vacirca
The Arms, however, ascribed to him, in the Heralds' College,
are:--Argent, a fess dancetée between two chaplets, Sable.

<more snip>

Post by Rock Vacirca
If anyone has any thoughts or can supply any further information on
the above, it would be most appreciated.

I have just looked through the indices to the four volumes of The
Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary and found no Bubwith at
all. So I would suggest that all arms are spurious. You might ask the
College of Arms where they got the above arms from.
I have also looked through the index made by IHGS
<http://www.achievements.co.uk/family_tree_names/armigerous_ancestors_database.html>
to the visitations armigers and there is no Bubwith there either.
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Nicholas Bubwith became a civil servant at a young age, working in Chancery, and amassed a lot of ecclesiastical preferments in rapid succession.

He became Bishop of London, Bishop of Salisbury, and Bishop of Bath and Wells

He was appointed as England's emissary to the Council of Constance to elect the new Pope

He was successively Master of the Rolls, Lord Privy Seal, and Lord High Treasurer of England

I am amazed that someone of that status, is not credited with a Coat of Arms in any of the Armorials (despite Arms being recorded in his chantry, and on his arrival in Constance).

Is this out of the ordinary (pun not intended) or fairly common in the early 15th century (for men of such status NOT to have a recorded Coat of Arms in any Armorials)?

Rock

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by 1***@gmail.com
I am amazed that someone of that status, is not credited with a Coat of Arms in any of the Armorials (despite Arms being recorded in his chantry, and on his arrival in Constance).

Noël Denholm-Young wrote somewhere (in his _Country Gentry in the Fourteenth
Century_?) that in those days coats of arms beared by clergy did not commonly
appear on rolls of arms, though there were some exceptions such as Anthony Bek,
Bishop of Durham, the war-like prelate. He stated that rolls of arms (in that
period) were primarily compiled for military purpose (and thus clergy's arms
were excluded).
How much Denhom-Young's statement is valid for Nicholas Bubwith's time should
yet to be discussed; we should as well bear in mind how rolls of arms were
used in the period in conceren.

Satoru Uemura

[Peter Howarth]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by 1***@gmail.com
I am amazed that someone of that status, is not credited with a Coat of Arms in any of the Armorials (despite Arms being recorded in his chantry, and on his arrival in Constance).

Noël Denholm-Young wrote somewhere (in his _Country Gentry in the Fourteenth
Century_?) that in those days coats of arms beared by clergy did not commonly
appear on rolls of arms, though there were some exceptions such as Anthony Bek,
Bishop of Durham, the war-like prelate. He stated that rolls of arms (in that
period) were primarily compiled for military purpose (and thus clergy's arms
were excluded).
How much Denhom-Young's statement is valid for Nicholas Bubwith's time should
yet to be discussed; we should as well bear in mind how rolls of arms were
used in the period in conceren.
Satoru Uemura

This is an important point. True Anthony Bek, Bishop of Durham, was unusual in his time being a cleric with a coat of arms. But he died in 1311. By the end of the 14th c. there were many bishops who used their coats of arms on their official seals. Since Bubwith was bishop in title and income only, rather than in actual office, it is not surprising that his episcopal seals, if any, are no longer extant. And as one of the King's officers he probably used those official seals with versions of the royal arms.

I think that the omission of Bubwith from the rolls of arms are to do with the purpose of the rolls. At first, when they referred to named individuals, they were used to identify those taking part in tournaments or, to a lesser extent, on the battlefield. Apart from Anthony Bek, they don't include clerics. But by the end of the 14th c., and during the 15th c., more of the rolls used surnames only to identify the arms, many of which were taken from earlier rolls. They still didn't include clerics. However, this was the period when quartering became popular. My interpretation is that these rolls were used to identify the different quarters on quartered shields, which were now becoming status symbols rather than a means of identifying individuals. Under those circumstances, the arms of a celibate cleric from an unknown family would be of little interest.

Peter Howarth

[1***@gmail.com]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by 1***@gmail.com
I am amazed that someone of that status, is not credited with a Coat of Arms in any of the Armorials (despite Arms being recorded in his chantry, and on his arrival in Constance).

Noël Denholm-Young wrote somewhere (in his _Country Gentry in the Fourteenth
Century_?) that in those days coats of arms beared by clergy did not commonly
appear on rolls of arms, though there were some exceptions such as Anthony Bek,
Bishop of Durham, the war-like prelate. He stated that rolls of arms (in that
period) were primarily compiled for military purpose (and thus clergy's arms
were excluded).
How much Denhom-Young's statement is valid for Nicholas Bubwith's time should
yet to be discussed; we should as well bear in mind how rolls of arms were
used in the period in conceren.
Satoru Uemura

Interesting Satoru.

I can believe Denholm-Young's observation for the lower clergy, but for the higher clergy I doubt that holds true. From my own observations the higher clergy were seldom purely ecclesiastical, most, if not all, of the higher clergy I have looked at held dual posts, ecclesiastical and temporal, such as Nicholas Bubwith, being both a Bishop and Lord Privy Seal and Lord High Treasurer. For most of his life he worked on affairs of state, starting in Chancery, then judicial, diplomatic, and state functions followed. His ecclesiastical preferments were initially in the King's gift, and those Rectories and Archdeaconries were solely for income and reward purposes, he never served any of those positions. He did serve some of functions of Bishop when he was elevated to that position, and spent more time on them when he retired from his affairs of state.

I believe that Bishoprics and Archbishoprics were more political appointments than ecclesiastic during that period, from my observations, and that most of the Bishops and Archbishops, but not all, emerged from the aristocracy or upper gentry.

Would others agree?

Rock

[1***@gmail.com]

Today I phoned Portcullis Pursuivant at the College of Arms and he informed me that most Bishops did in fact have a coat of arms, and the College of Arms have a great many arms, including those of clerics, that do not appear in any published Armory, confirming what others have said in reply to my post.

He also mentioned that there are several books on the Arms of Bishops of various cathedrals, so after my conversation had ended I search for Arms of the Bishops of Bath and Wells, and found the White Lion Society website, a "Society of Friends" of the College of Arms, that had the arms not only of the Bishops of Bath and Wells, but of Salisbury and London too, and as Nicholas Bubwith was previously Bishop of Salisbury and Bishop of London I found his coat of arms in each gallery, and they were all the same.

The blazon (given under Salisbury) was:

Arg. a fess engrailed humetty sa. as between 3 chaplets each of 4 holly leaves ppr.

http://www.whitelionsociety.co.uk/gallery/bish-bath-wells.html

http://www.whitelionsociety.co.uk/gallery/bish-salisbury.html

http://www.whitelionsociety.co.uk/gallery/bish-london.html


Very similar to the other balzons, but another slight variant, this time with the fess engrailed being 'humetty'.

I am not sure I want to spend £300 at the College of Arms finding out in what manuscript they have the Arms of Bishop Bubwith recorded, and what the definitive blazon is.

He did give me the answer to another of my earlier posts though, concerning a Book with no Title or Author. That post asked:

In a letter dated 17th Aug 1790 a lady wrote to her correspondent:

"I saw an old book describing Coats of Arms that were painted in
Yorkshire Churches; the Arms of the del la Hays of Spaldington were
mentioned as being in the windows of Bubwith, North Cave and Eastrington"

I have Glover's Visitation of 1584/5, published in 1875, which the arms in the windows of many East Riding churches are tricked (but not Bubwith or Eastrington, which the lady refers to), so I was quite excited to learn of a much earlier book

Does anyone have a clue to which book she was referring, published pre-1790?

Portcullis informed that it was not only Glover's 1584/5 Visitation that had a return of arms in church window glass, but that Dugdale's 1665 Visitation had such a return too. It is manuscript, but in folio (book) form, and has never been published, and it is likely that this is the 'Old Book' that the Lady referred to.

Rock

[Peter Howarth]

Post by 1***@gmail.com
Today I phoned Portcullis Pursuivant at the College of Arms and he informed me that most Bishops did in fact have a coat of arms, and the College of Arms have a great many arms, including those of clerics, that do not appear in any published Armory, confirming what others have said in reply to my post.
He also mentioned that there are several books on the Arms of Bishops of various cathedrals, so after my conversation had ended I search for Arms of the Bishops of Bath and Wells, and found the White Lion Society website, a "Society of Friends" of the College of Arms, that had the arms not only of the Bishops of Bath and Wells, but of Salisbury and London too, and as Nicholas Bubwith was previously Bishop of Salisbury and Bishop of London I found his coat of arms in each gallery, and they were all the same.
Arg. a fess engrailed humetty sa. as between 3 chaplets each of 4 holly leaves ppr.
http://www.whitelionsociety.co.uk/gallery/bish-bath-wells.html
http://www.whitelionsociety.co.uk/gallery/bish-salisbury.html
http://www.whitelionsociety.co.uk/gallery/bish-london.html
Very similar to the other balzons, but another slight variant, this time with the fess engrailed being 'humetty'.
I am not sure I want to spend £300 at the College of Arms finding out in what manuscript they have the Arms of Bishop Bubwith recorded, and what the definitive blazon is.
"I saw an old book describing Coats of Arms that were painted in
Yorkshire Churches; the Arms of the del la Hays of Spaldington were
mentioned as being in the windows of Bubwith, North Cave and Eastrington"
I have Glover's Visitation of 1584/5, published in 1875, which the arms in the windows of many East Riding churches are tricked (but not Bubwith or Eastrington, which the lady refers to), so I was quite excited to learn of a much earlier book
Does anyone have a clue to which book she was referring, published pre-1790?
Portcullis informed that it was not only Glover's 1584/5 Visitation that had a return of arms in church window glass, but that Dugdale's 1665 Visitation had such a return too. It is manuscript, but in folio (book) form, and has never been published, and it is likely that this is the 'Old Book' that the Lady referred to.
Rock

May I please make the point that the White Lion Society (however much good work it may do elsewhere) has on its website only the purported arms of various bishops, and in fact on its page for the bishops of London admits that some of them must be fictitious. It does not give any source for its illustrations, so they could have been made up by anyone.

And I really cannot believe that Bubwith's arms involved a fess humetty. This was not the sort of detail anyone worried about at that date. No one was concerned about the the number of stripes in a barry field, or whether something was engrailed rather than indented. Such concern for unimportant minutiae was a characteristic of later periods, not of mediaeval heraldry.

Nor would I waste £300 paying for information that was unlikely to be 'definitive'. Based on 'A Catalogue of Manuscripts in the College of Arms' (1988), they won't have anything authoritative for someone who died in 1424. Most of the relevant manuscripts for the period before 1530 were used in the preparation of the Dictionary of British Arms, which we already know does not contain any reference to Bubwith.

The only truly definitive evidence for Bubwith's arms would be an armorial seal. None of the standard lists of seals include anything of his, so the only hope is to find an example in a cathedral archive. Both Wells and Salisbury are very pleasant places to stay!

Peter Howarth

[Derek Howard]

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by 1***@gmail.com
Today I phoned Portcullis Pursuivant at the College of Arms and he informed me that most Bishops did in fact have a coat of arms, and the College of Arms have a great many arms, including those of clerics, that do not appear in any published Armory, confirming what others have said in reply to my post.
He also mentioned that there are several books on the Arms of Bishops of various cathedrals,

<snip>

Post by Peter Howarth
The only truly definitive evidence for Bubwith's arms would be an armorial seal. None of the standard lists of seals include anything of his, so the only hope is to find an example in a cathedral archive. Both Wells and Salisbury are very pleasant places to stay!

There are perhaps more shields bearing Bubwith's arms in Wells than I thought from reading the original post and that can be tied to him through works subsequent to his will. See J H Parker: "The Architectural Antiquities of the City of Wells", Oxford and London 1866, at
https://archive.org/stream/architecturalant00parkiala#page/n3/

Bubwith's will is given in full (p 44-7). A footnote (p 45n) referring to Bishop Bubwith's chantry chapel at Wells cathedral (under which was to be his sepulchre): "In the chapel, against the pillar at the west end, is a shield charged with the arms of the See, impaling those of the Founder, Bishop Bubwith:- A fess engrailed, between three groups of conjoined holly-leaves, four in each".

Discussing works undertaken following Bishop Bubwith's will (p 55):
"The works provided for in Bishop Bubwith's will were faith-fully performed. The north-west tower of the cathedral was finished, evidence of which can still be seen in the building itself. ln its western front are two canopied niches, one of which probably contained a statue of Archbishop Stafford, but its former occupant is gone. In the other is the sadly dilapidated statue of the munificent prelate himself, holding his pastoral staff, and in the attitude of prayer. Underneath is a shield charged with his arms. The statue appears to be in a most insecure and dangerous state, and seems to be looking frowningly down, inviting the notice of those to whom its safety and preservation are entrusted. Another shield, bearing the bishop's arms, is inserted in the eastern side of the tower. In the southern gable of the library, over the eastern cloister, the arms are again seen, and in the library windows, in stained glass, they are several times repeated. In the windows of the chapel, at the northern extremity of the Vicars' Close, the bishop's arms still remain, as well as on the oak door of the chapel, where there are three other shields, including one charged with the arms of the see, one with arms unknown, and the fourth shield is nearly similar to one of those now in the small window in the almshouse chapel, which has some resemblance to the armorial bearings of Archbishop Stafford. These latter facts lead to the inference that Bishop Bubwith was a benefactor to the Vicars' Choral; and several writers on our local history assign the great tithe barn as the work of this prelate".

Regarding the restoration of the Almshouse Chapel (p 67):
"For many years the chapel was in a state of dilapidation and neglect. In the year 1850 the whole of the interior was thoroughly renovated, and the coats of whitewash and ochre removed. The roof and walls were repaired, and the wood seats or benches renewed. The floor of the eastern end was raised, and laid with encaustic tiles of suitable character. The eastern window was opened, repaired, and filled with stained glass (by Bell), in which are represented the armorial bearings of Bishops Bubwith, Still, and Willes, the three founders, together with the arms of Bishop Bagot, ..."

"In the upper part of the window [in the almshouse chapel] the arms of the city are also represented, and in the lower part is a figure of St. Andrew. In a small window in the north wall, and near the east corner of the chapel, are the arms of Bishop Bubwith, with his name in ancient characters, and three other shields, probably those of two of the founder's executors, or some other benefactors to the Hospital. The arms of one of the shields are very similar to those of Archbishop Stafford. These shields were removed from windows in the common kitchen. On a corbel, on the south side of the chapel, is a mitred head, with the initials N. B., intended for Bishop Bubwith". (See p 68).

On p 72: "A few years ago the hall was divided, one portion being set apart for 'increasing the accommodation of the Almshouse, and the other part being appropriated as a place for the meetings of the trustees. ... ... The bell-turret in the eastern gable of the hall has the arms of Bishop Bubwith, with the initials of his name, on the north side, and on the south side the arms of the city".

Incidentally, John Stourton, Esq. ("John Storton the elder" was an executor of Bubwith's will which explains the Stourton arms mentioned earlier in the thread. See pp 53-4 where he is mentioned as a resident in Wells, with his name often occurs in the city records.

With so many contemporary or near-contemporary Bubwith shields in and around his works, I would be happy to accept the carved and stained glass evidence.

Derek Howard

[1***@gmail.com]

All points well taken Peter.

While seals provide evidence that someone was using a particular coat in the early 15th century, before regulation was introduced, surely Bubwith's arms on his chauntry in Wells Cathedral is equal evidence? Whether the shield included a fess that was engrailed, dancetee, or humetty, I think were details that were most probably in the eye of the beholder of a rather worn coat depicted in stone or on a seal.

I am inclined to depict the arms of Bishop Bubwith (for the time being) as those in his chauntry usually rendered as the See impaling Bubwith. The latter a fesse engrailed between three groups of conjoined holly leaves, four in each."[ Britton's Hist. Wells Cathedr. p. 110], but with the notes I used in my original post as footnotes.

I will enquire of the Wells and Salisbury diocesan archives if they hold any documents of Bishop Bubwith that have seals attached. The main problem with both seals and stone-engraved coats is that they do not depict any tinctures. I wonder what sources Wharton and Fra. Godwin used to provide the tinctures?

I am also at a loss as to what to make of the Wiener Manuscript. Does anyone on the list have any experience in dealing with Ulrich Richental's Chronik des Konzils zu Konstanz 1414-1418 and the Wiener Manuscript supplement?


Rock

[Derek Howard]

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 12:39:30 PM UTC+1, Rock ***@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

Post by 1***@gmail.com
I am also at a loss as to what to make of the Wiener Manuscript. Does anyone on the list have any experience in dealing with Ulrich Richental's Chronik des Konzils zu Konstanz 1414-1418 and the Wiener Manuscript supplement?

One text of the Richental Chronik is in the Badische LandesBibliothek and is digitised. The arms of the misnamed Bishop may be seen at
<http://digital.blb-karlsruhe.de/blbhs/content/pageview/1204917>

Apart from Steen Clemmensen, whose works are at <http://www.armorial.dk/>, others have been looking at the Chronicle also, see brief articles at http://heraldica.hypotheses.org/2584 and http://heraldica.hypotheses.org/2543

Derek Howard

[Derek Howard]

Post by Derek Howard
<snip>

Post by 1***@gmail.com
I am also at a loss as to what to make of the Wiener Manuscript. Does anyone on the list have any experience in dealing with Ulrich Richental's Chronik des Konzils zu Konstanz 1414-1418 and the Wiener Manuscript supplement?

One text of the Richental Chronik is in the Badische LandesBibliothek and is digitised. The arms of the misnamed Bishop may be seen at
<http://digital.blb-karlsruhe.de/blbhs/content/pageview/1204917>
Apart from Steen Clemmensen, whose works are at <http://www.armorial.dk/>, others have been looking at the Chronicle also, see brief articles at http://heraldica.hypotheses.org/2584 and http://heraldica.hypotheses.org/2543
Derek Howard

It may be worth noting that the Richental's Chronicle of the Council of Constance survives in five manuscripts but that these date from the 1460s and 1470s. A presumed original may have been dated in the 1420s or 1430s but there are differences in the heraldry of the manuscripts, the arms vary, there are imaginary arms in them and some do not include arms of some bishops and others. The chances of error are therefore large (as exemplified by the error in the Bishop's Christian name) and, looking at the Baden copy, fol 34r, it would have been awkward for the artist to include the third wreath having impaled the arms.

Derek Howard

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All points well taken Peter.

While seals provide evidence that someone was using a particular coat in the early 15th century, before regulation was introduced, surely Bubwith's arms on his chauntry in Wells Cathedral is equal evidence? Whether the shield included a fess that was engrailed, dancetee, or humetty, I think were details that were most probably in the eye of the beholder of a rather worn coat depicted in stone or on a seal.

I am inclined to depict the arms of Bishop Bubwith (for the time being) as those in his chauntry usually rendered as the See impaling Bubwith. The latter a fesse engrailed between three groups of conjoined holly leaves, four in each."[ Britton's Hist. Wells Cathedr. p. 110], but with the notes I used in my original post as footnotes.

I will enquire of the Wells and Salisbury diocesan archives if they hold any documents of Bishop Bubwith that have seals attached. The main problem with both seals and stone-engraved coats is that they do not depict any tinctures. I wonder what sources Wharton and Fra. Godwin used to provide the tinctures?

All points well taken Peter.

While seals provide evidence that someone was using a particular coat in the early 15th century, before regulation was introduced, surely Bubwith's arms on his chauntry in Wells Cathedral is equal evidence? Whether the shield included a fess that was engrailed, dancetee, or humetty, I think were details that were most probably in the eye of the beholder of a rather worn coat depicted in stone or on a seal.

I am inclined to depict the arms of Bishop Bubwith (for the time being) as those in his chauntry usually rendered as the See impaling Bubwith. The latter a fesse engrailed between three groups of conjoined holly leaves, four in each."[ Britton's Hist. Wells Cathedr. p. 110], but with the notes I used in my original post as footnotes.

I will enquire of the Wells and Salisbury diocesan archives if they hold any documents of Bishop Bubwith that have seals attached. The main problem with both seals and stone-engraved coats is that they do not depict any tinctures. I wonder what sources Wharton and Fra. Godwin used to provide the tinctures?

Arms and people in Ulrich Richental's Chronik des Konzils zu Konstanz 1414-1418, Steen Clemmense, 2011, gives the arms of Nicholas Bubwith at Constance as: 2 staves in saltire; fess engrailed betw 2 annulets. However, he provise the following notes:

Nicholas Bubwith, d.1424, Bp.Bath & Wells (Bathonien. & Wellen., England) 1407. Member of the Conclave for the English Nation. Arms of Bath & Wells impaling Bubwith, both confounded.
Similar arms in [K300] for 'rudolfus bathoniensis eps' and different arms in [K305] for 'nicolaus bathoniensis ..'.
Eubel HC 1:133; Gams SE 182; Burke GA 58 (Bath & Wells) = {Az sword Ar and pair of keys ArOr in saltire}; Bedford BE 22 (Bubwith) = {Ar fess engrailed Sa betw 3 chaplets Vt}; Dacher L 14 'fridericus eps bathonien.';

http://www.armorial.dk/german/Richental.pdf


The Bedford reference he gives is: The Blazon of Episcopacy, by the Rev. W. K. Riland Bedford, 1858, page 18:

https://archive.org/stream/blazonepiscopac00bedfgoog#page/n56/mode/2up

This appears to be the source of the coats of arms on the White Lion Society website.

Bedford gives as his sources:

Monument, Poole's Catalogue
Collinson's Somerset, Vol iii, p.399
Cassan's Bishops of Bath and Wells, p. 209

I am not familiar with Poole's Catalogue. Does anyone have a full reference for this work?

Rock