Order of Malta - heraldic entitlement

Sorry this isn't an answer!
May this help the casual reader!

Since I am researching a similar matter!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protonotary_apostolic

Quote:
"""On 8 February, 1838, Pope Gregory XVI re-established the college of
real protonotaries with seven members called protonotarii de numero
participantium, also known as numerary protonotaries, because they
shared in the revenues, as officials of the Roman Chancery."""

for Nicolai

2009-02-18 06:29:05 UTC

Another little window!
http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/conventa.htm

Quote
"The Conventional Chaplains shall be appointed by the Maltese
Grandmaster and
and will be sent to give service from Malta"
Who would be so kind and elaborate!

The Chief

2009-02-18 17:19:29 UTC

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?
Thank you.

The heraldic entitlements of a Conventual Chaplain of the Order of St.
John (aka Malta), are illustrated by Guy Stair Sainty at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/heraldic.htm
along with those of other classes of membership.

The Chief

v***@hotmail.com

2009-02-19 04:35:47 UTC

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?
Thank you.

The heraldic entitlements of a Conventual Chaplain of the Order of St.
John (aka Malta), are illustrated by Guy Stair Sainty athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/heraldic.htm
along with those of other classes of membership.
The Chief

Thank you very much for this link however I can find no mention of the
specific heraldic hat to which a conventual chaplain of the Order of
Malta is entitled. Does anyone know?

g***@gmail.com

2009-02-19 05:29:22 UTC

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?
Thank you.

The heraldic entitlements of a Conventual Chaplain of the Order of St.
John (aka Malta), are illustrated by Guy Stair Sainty athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/heraldic.htm
along with those of other classes of membership.
The Chief

Thank you very much for this link however I can find no mention of the
specific heraldic hat to which a conventual chaplain of the Order of
Malta is entitled. Does anyone know?

There is no specific hat (galero). The hat is an insignia of
ecclesiastic rank not of the position within the order. The hat does
not vary with the status of the clergyman within the order but the
status of the clergyman within the Church. Two separate things. So if
a simple priest is a conventual chaplain his hat is that of a simple
priest.

for Nicolai

2009-02-23 06:34:29 UTC

Maybe this will help or confuse the issue!
CONVENTUAL CHAPLAINS "AD HONOREM"

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5126/SMOMCA_ARM2.html

------------------------------------------
I have a question
if the order of St. John
is represented by the white cross on red ground,
which order "if any" could-would be represented by a black cross on or/
gold ground?

http://www.eha.ee/vapid/index.php?act=vapp&id=612&nimi=&tiitel=&andja=&kujund=Kreuz&lang=de

g***@gmail.com

2009-02-24 20:20:03 UTC

Post by for Nicolai
Maybe this will help or confuse the issue!
CONVENTUAL CHAPLAINS "AD HONOREM"
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5126/SMOMCA_ARM2.html

The structure of the SMOM is complex.There are three classes. The
first class are professed religious (have taken monastic vows). The
second class have made a promise of obedience and the third class are
laymen or religious who are members of the order. The conventual
chaplains (members of the first class) are priests or other religious
who have dedicated themselves to the order - much like the professed
knights (Fra'). In the third class there are six categories - two for
chaplains, three for knights and one for donats (who support the order
but are not knights). The knights are ranked according to their proofs
of nobility with the first rank honour and devotion requiring more
ancient nobility and magistral grace requiring none . The clergy
(chaplains) are also in two categories - the lower grade of magistral
chaplains and the higher grade of honorary conventual chaplains. The
higher grade is made up mainly of higher ranked prelates - bishops,
abbots, assorted monsignors. That's where you start seeing a greater
variety of hats - all related to rank in the Church not rank in the
order. Hope that helps.

George Lucki

for Nicolai

2009-02-25 05:07:21 UTC

Dear George,

Thank You... for your very detailed insight,
I have a sincere question....
how would "you or others" rank the senior residing chaplain
of the Maltese chapel of St. John of Jerusalem
at the "Corps de Pages" St. Petersburg!
in 1876 appointed "at the same chapel"
to
I really can't make this out, seemingly not translatable!
???Mogilyov Artikafedralnogo Kapitula???

"A sincere estimate would help, too!"

Or where were/are such records kept!

With my best regards,
!

for Nicolai

2009-02-26 04:06:09 UTC

I am getting closer!
Not sure if this translation is 100% correct!
"""Canon of the archbishopric Mogilevsky diocese or chapter"""

g***@gmail.com

2009-02-27 18:49:02 UTC

Post by for Nicolai
I am getting closer!
Not sure if this translation is 100% correct!
"""Canon of the archbishopric Mogilevsky diocese or chapter"""

Apples and oranges. The Canon - Member of the Cathedral Chapter of the
Mohylew archdiocese - the bishop's council would typically be drawn in
Poland-Russia from influential clergy most often of noble birth. This
group of clergy had special privileges in terms of dress and canons
typically had substantial incomes from cathedral lands and from church
funds. The Rector of the Chapel in the School of the Corps de Pages
would have no church rank greater than that of any rector of any
personal chapel - but as the Corps de Pages served the children of the
nobility and the senior military ranks the position was also one of
considerable influence and it would be worth knowing who these rectors
are (some could also be canons of the Archdiocese as this was not
incompatible with having another office, information which I
unfortunately don't have access to). In formal terms the Canons would
outrank any rector within their diocese, but it would be interesting
to look at the later careers of the rectors. Some of the canons
certainly rose to greater prominence in the Church.

George Lucki

for Nicolai

2009-02-28 03:23:31 UTC

Thank you George,

I am having the problem with who replaced whom!
As much as "I" understand or are able to translate,
both where rector as well as Canons, whereby the first was "Bishop???"
So a chaplain/Canon replaced a Bishop???

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me!
Maybe something is lost in translation or I don't have enough
information!

http://www.biografija.ru/show_bio.aspx?id=49023

http://www.2spbg.ru/teacher1.php?id=73

Sadly those titles are not being translated!

g***@gmail.com

2009-03-02 18:05:55 UTC

Post by for Nicolai
Thank you George,
I am having the problem with who replaced whom!
As much as "I" understand or are able to translate,
both where rector as well as Canons, whereby the first was "Bishop???"
So a chaplain/Canon replaced a Bishop???
The whole thing doesn't make sense to me!
Maybe something is lost in translation or I don't have enough
information!
http://www.biografija.ru/show_bio.aspx?id=49023
http://www.2spbg.ru/teacher1.php?id=73
Sadly those titles are not being translated!

The first fellow is Jerzy Iwaszkiewicz from an old Polish-Lithuanian
noble family. He was made a canon of the Mohylew archdiocese in 1849,
and in 1859 started serving in the St. John chapel in the Corps de
Pages. He held that appointment until his death. In 1872 he was
appointed a suffragan bishop (a bishop who assists the ordinary
archbishop of the archdiocese). In 1874 he assumed the role of a vicar
capitular of the archdiocese or the interim administrator of the
vacant diocese. He died in 1876.

The second fellow is Marcin Karlowicz - from a Polish burgher family.
From a post at Dorpat University (Tartu) he was transferred to the St.
John Chapel in 1874 where he was first the interim and then the
regular chaplain. He was appointed a canon in 1876.

This shows that the post at the Corps de Pages was an important one
and was held by individuals who had history of a good career in career
trajectory in the Church and could be a stepping stone from and to
other administrative roles. In both cases the chaplain was already or
shortly to become a canon of the cathedral chapter and in the fiorst
case a suffragan bishop, but these are separate positions as I had
previously tried to describe.

Kind regards,
George Lucki

Rafal

2009-03-10 21:34:37 UTC

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?
Thank you.

The heraldic entitlements of a Conventual Chaplain of the Order of St.
John (aka Malta), are illustrated by Guy Stair Sainty athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/heraldic.htm
along with those of other classes of membership.
The Chief

Thank you very much for this link however I can find no mention of the
specific heraldic hat to which a conventual chaplain of the Order of
Malta is entitled. Does anyone know?

The heraldic privileges which accompany appointment to a given rank in
the Order of Malta traditionally pertain exclusively to to the display
of the insignia and the cross of the Order and have no impact upon the
hat/galero.

However it is my understanding that Pope Pius X stipulated that the
two Malta ranks of Conventual Chaplain "ad honorem" and Magistral
Chaplain would exactly mirror those of Prelate of Honour and Chaplain
to His Holiness. If this is true, I suppose one could make an argument
that Conventual Chaplains are entitled to the heraldic privileges of a
Prelate of Honour: a violet galero with a violet cord of 6 violet
tassels either side. Unfortunately, I cannot recall ever seeing an
armorial illustration which supports this view. However this does not
necessarily mean that a Conventual Chaplain's use of such a galero is
incorrect. To my knowledge this issue has never been definitively, or
even adequately, addressed by heraldic scholars and until it is, or
until the Church provides clarification, I believe that the jury is
open.

Kind regards,

Rafal Heydel-Mankoo

g***@gmail.com

2009-03-10 22:27:38 UTC

Post by Rafal

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?
Thank you.

The heraldic entitlements of a Conventual Chaplain of the Order of St.
John (aka Malta), are illustrated by Guy Stair Sainty athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/heraldic.htm
along with those of other classes of membership.
The Chief

Thank you very much for this link however I can find no mention of the
specific heraldic hat to which a conventual chaplain of the Order of
Malta is entitled. Does anyone know?

The heraldic privileges which accompany appointment to a given rank in
the Order of Malta traditionally pertain exclusively to to the display
of the insignia and the cross of the Order and have no impact upon the
hat/galero.
However it is my understanding that Pope Pius X stipulated that the
two Malta ranks of Conventual Chaplain "ad honorem" and Magistral
Chaplain would exactly mirror those of Prelate of Honour and Chaplain
to His Holiness. If this is true, I suppose one could make an argument
that Conventual Chaplains are entitled to the heraldic privileges of a
Prelate of Honour: a violet galero with a violet cord of 6 violet
tassels either side. Unfortunately, I cannot recall ever seeing an
armorial illustration which supports this view. However this does not
necessarily mean that a Conventual Chaplain's use of such a galero is
incorrect. To my knowledge this issue has never been definitively, or
even adequately, addressed by heraldic scholars and until it is, or
until the Church provides clarification, I believe that the jury is
open.
Kind regards,
Rafal Heydel-Mankoo- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Any such ruling relative to precedence (if there actually was such a
general ruling - as there might be various church ranks represented in
for example the conventual chaplain ad honorem grade what would we do
with a bishop who held this rank?) might not have any heraldic
consequences. In any case the later reform and simplification of the
Papal household would have ended all earlier practices.
George Lucki

g***@yahoo.com

2009-02-18 18:10:30 UTC

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?

=======

I don't know about conventual chaplains, but professed chaplains bear
their shield upon the cross of the order and a rosary encircling the
points of the cross:
Loading Image...

The photos here show Father Gérard Tonque Lagleder O.S.B. being
invested as a conventual chaplain honorem: http://www.smom-za.org/gtl_ccah.htm

His cross is that of Knight of Magistral Grace; so, perhaps conventual
chaplains use the same heraldic privileges of their SMOM ranking. In
Fr. Gerard Lagleder's case, his heraldic privileges would be:
Loading Image...

I've not found any mentions of hats, etc.

Regards,
--Guy Power

c***@gmail.com

2009-03-04 01:57:48 UTC

Post by g***@yahoo.com

Post by v***@hotmail.com
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?

=======
I don't know about conventual chaplains, but professed chaplains bear
their shield upon the cross of the order and a rosary encircling the
points of the cross:http://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/images/armsmt10.jpg
The photos here show Father Gérard Tonque Lagleder O.S.B. being
invested as a conventual chaplain honorem:http://www.smom-za.org/gtl_ccah.htm
His cross is that of Knight of Magistral Grace; so, perhaps conventual
chaplains use the same heraldic privileges of their SMOM ranking. In
Fr. Gerard Lagleder's case, his heraldic privileges would be:http://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/images/armsmt9.jpg
I've not found any mentions of hats, etc.
Regards,
--Guy Power

For those interested, the following link in Italian lists the ranks
and decorations for SMOM. http://www.iagi.info/araldica/ordini/malta/malta/index.html

Yours;

Stephen

for Nicolai

2009-03-04 03:24:11 UTC

Hi George,
thank you for your explanations and trying to make sense out of it!

Am I correct in my "assumption" that the SMOM( in St. Petersburg)
was at that time under the authority of the Polish Church???

g***@gmail.com

2009-03-04 06:10:24 UTC

Post by for Nicolai
Hi George,
thank you for your explanations and trying to make sense out of it!
Am I correct in my "assumption" that the SMOM( in St. Petersburg)
was at that time under the authority of the Polish Church???

No. It was under the authority of the new Russian hierarchy of the
Roman Catholic Church which was largely Polish Poland had been
partitioned and the former Polish church administration had been torn
apart and reorganized to fit the new borders of Austria, Prussia and
Russia. Actually the diocese and later archdiocese of Mohylew was not
even established by Church initiative. It was established by Catherine
the Great and then sanctioned by Rome and became the basis for
reorganizing the Roman Catholic Church in Russia after the partition
of Poland - or actually organizing it as previously there was no
Catholic hierarchy in the Russian Empire as there were few Catholics -
mainly foreigners. The largest numbers of Catholics in Russia as well
as Catholic clergy was Polish - perhaps 90% plus. At the same time the
much larger Uniate (Greek Catholic) Church in formerly Polish White
Russia and Ukraine was oppressed and ultimately incorporated into the
Orthodox Church.

George Lucki

for Nicolai

2013-12-07 10:45:59 UTC

Post by g***@gmail.com
In formal terms the Canons would
outrank any rector within their diocese, but it would be interesting
to look at the later careers of the rectors.
George Lucki

Post by v***@hotmail.com
What heraldic entitlements are granted to Conventual Chaplains of the
Order of Malta? What hat may they use on their arms -- the hat of a
protonatory apostolic?
Thank you.

The heraldic entitlements of a Conventual Chaplain of the Order of St.
John (aka Malta), are illustrated by Guy Stair Sainty athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/heraldic.htm
along with those of other classes of membership.
The Chief

Thank you very much for this link however I can find no mention of the
specific heraldic hat to which a conventual chaplain of the Order of
Malta is entitled. Does anyone know?

The heraldic privileges which accompany appointment to a given rank in
the Order of Malta traditionally pertain exclusively to to the display
of the insignia and the cross of the Order and have no impact upon the
hat/galero.
However it is my understanding that Pope Pius X stipulated that the
two Malta ranks of Conventual Chaplain "ad honorem" and Magistral
Chaplain would exactly mirror those of Prelate of Honour and Chaplain
to His Holiness. If this is true, I suppose one could make an argument
that Conventual Chaplains are entitled to the heraldic privileges of a
Prelate of Honour: a violet galero with a violet cord of 6 violet
tassels either side. Unfortunately, I cannot recall ever seeing an
armorial illustration which supports this view. However this does not
necessarily mean that a Conventual Chaplain's use of such a galero is
incorrect. To my knowledge this issue has never been definitively, or
even adequately, addressed by heraldic scholars and until it is, or
until the Church provides clarification, I believe that the jury is
open.
Kind regards,
Rafal Heydel-Mankoo

Just so this has been updated, but there are still too many unanswered questions
attached to all this!!!

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

for Nicolai

2013-12-07 10:50:16 UTC

... but there are still too many unanswered questions
attached to all this!!!

Like
Loading Image...

??????????????

for Nicolai

2013-12-12 23:28:30 UTC

...off topic!!!well,
didn't know that Christine and Owen got it through the Queen....?
... great!

"""
Date:
23 August 2011
Issue Number:
59888
Page number:
16141

Publication Date: Tuesday, 23 August 2011

Notice Code: 1120

Order of St John

The Queen has been graciously pleased to sanction the following Promotions in, and Appointments to, the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem.

"""

...but back to the subject!

for Nicolai

2013-12-15 11:46:26 UTC

Post by g***@gmail.com

Just that there are no misunderstanding,
-"after Paul's death, the Maltese Order went-came back under the rule of "Rome",

- Russia had to ask Rome for permission for
the appointments of any "at least" higher position within the RC hierarchy/church!

If Rome didn't give it's consent, Russia couldn't do anything about it!

Post by g***@gmail.com
Actually the diocese and later archdiocese of Mohylew was not
even established by Church initiative. It was established by Catherine
the Great and then sanctioned by Rome

Quote: !!!
"""Catherine elevated the diocese to an archdiocese, and in 1783 these actions were recognised by Pope Pius VI in the bull Onerosa pastoralis officii.[1] The archdiocese remained the metropolitan see for Russia throughout imperial times ...................."""
well in this case the "or later?" "PRO-CATHEDRAL-CAPITULUM" meaning, Arc-Cathedral-Capitulum in absence....!?

for Nicolai

2014-01-05 09:52:52 UTC