Wilhelm O'Kelly von Aghrim

[s***@gmail.com]

Hi all,

Here is a link to an interesting article that mentions how William O'Kelly of Aghrim tried to popularize the use of the lozenge by female armigers in German heraldry in the early eighteenth century:

http://oktogon.at/Goebl/frauenwappen.htm

O'Kelly apparently served as the Wappeninspektor at the Imperial Chancellery in Vienna from 1707 to 1751.

The British Library also appears to hold at least one of O'Kelly's grants of arms made during the reign of the Emperor Charles VI:

http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=IAMS_VU2&afterPDS=true&institution=BL&docId=IAMS032-002029941

Here are some images of some women's arms bearing O'Kelly's signature:

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

According to the article, O'Kelly would sometimes display the crests of female armigers on top of a shell instead of a helm!

Loading Image...

Apparently O'Kelly's innovation didn't stick: "...der Wappeninspektor William O'Kelly war im Jahr 1751 verstorben, seine Nachfolger griffen jedoch das von ihm entwickelte Muschelmotiv für Frauenwappen nicht mehr auf. Alle Kollegen, die ihm als Wappenzensoren nachfolgten gingen wieder auf die Zeit vor 1700 zurück und machten keine Unterscheidung mehr zwischen männlichen und weiblichen Wappen..."

[p***@gmail.com]

There was another O'Kelly: Philippe-Jean-Baptise O'Kelly who was King of Arms
of Hainaut and compiled this book: http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=QigIAAAAQAAJ
Were they related?

Philippe-Jean-Baptise seems to have had a son of the same name:
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=9nBSAAAAcAAJ
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rxBJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA111

Satoru Uemura

[Derek Howard]

Post by p***@gmail.com
There was another O'Kelly: Philippe-Jean-Baptise O'Kelly who was King of Arms
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=QigIAAAAQAAJ
Were they related?

Thanks for those useful links.

IIRC they (William and PJB) are not related directly. PJB O'Kelly, last king of arms of Hainault, was indeed related to the later editor of his book the comte O'Kelly de Galway, himself a heraldry expert in Belgium and the Netherlands. (There is a more recent descendant who is a well-known chess expert). There was indeed even another O'Kelly king of arms in the 18th century - this time in France. They all talked their employers into accepting their claims to nobility. All the O'Kelly kings of arms claimed descent from the west of Ireland and just _may_ in some way have been related way back before emigration.

There is a copy in the British Library of the volume you linked at
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=9nBSAAAAcAAJ
which also includes manuscript additions and stuck in proofs of ancestry submitted by O'Kelly de Galway for his nobility to be recognised by the Kingdom of the Netherlands in the early 19th century. When I inspected this it was IIRC apparent that the pedigree, although linked to earlier noble O'Kelly's in Ireland in the 17th century was devoid of any detail around the couple of generations covering the migrant ancestor in the 1690s and a crucial date was said to be a private baptism of which there was no corroboration; it had all the hallmarks of a forged pedigree. Somewhere I have some notes but I had decided that having the document photographed (it could not be photocopied) was the best option but it was not my priority at the time. I would be interested if the Imperial and French kings of arms' claimed pedigrees could also be found.

Derek Howard

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Derek Howard
IIRC they (William and PJB) are not related directly. PJB O'Kelly, last king

Thank you for clearing my question.

Post by Derek Howard
expert). There was indeed even another O'Kelly king of arms in the 18th
century - this time in France. They all talked their employers into accepting

Could you please give me "who's who" of the French O'Kelly king of arms?

Post by Derek Howard
said to be a private baptism of which there was no corroboration; it had all
the hallmarks of a forged pedigree. Somewhere I have some notes but I had

Interesting. Heralds' forgery might have been not rare (see for example:
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=3vS7ORpv_DoC&pg=PA177) and, I think,
to some degree this is why people needed heralds.

And Derek, you were probably in Münster last week. I hope what you and
other heraldic experts discussed will be published soon in some form.

Satoru Uemura

[Derek Howard]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Derek Howard
There was indeed even another O'Kelly king of arms in the 18th
century - this time in France. They all talked their employers into accepting

Could you please give me "who's who" of the French O'Kelly king of arms?

This is taking my mind back ten years or so but I remember seeing a reference in a work on the library shelves of the OGHB here in Brussels and IIRC it was possibly to either the Denis O'Kelly or his son John James O'Kelly, the comte O'Kelly, mentioned by Ruvigny at:
https://archive.org/stream/nobilitiesofeuro01ruviuoft#page/132/mode/2up

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Derek Howard
said to be a private baptism of which there was no corroboration; it had
all the hallmarks of a forged pedigree. Somewhere I have some notes

I have not yet dug out my old notes but have refreshed a little my memory with the entry in Ruvigny for:
O'KELLY. Emmanuel Francois O'Kelly, " avocat au conseil souverain de Brabant " and afterwards " Conseiller au conseil supreme de Noblesse " [b. at Brussels 3 Nov. 1763, being descended from John O'Kelly, a Capt. in the English Service, who was b. at Galway 30 Dec. 1672 and d. at Brussels 23 Oct. 1738], [fn 7 Nob. de Belgique, 1859, p. 278. A Comte Alphonse Charles Albert O'Kelly de Galway was author of Dictionnaire . . . de la Science du Blason (Bergerac, 1901).], obtained recognition of his NOBILITY [Netherlands] under the name of O'KELLY DE GALWAY by a royal decree of 19 Oct. 1824. His son, Jean Prosper Desire O'Kelly, " dit COMTE O'KELLY D'AGHRIM, employe au conseil supreme de Noblesse a La Haye" d. 29 Jan. 1843.
I suspect that the change to "d'Aghrim" element may perhaps have been to hint and suggest a link to the earlier Imperial king of arms and the HRE [MacNevin] O'Kelly of Aughrim title who also appears in Ruvigny:
O'KELLY OF AUGHRIM. William O'Kelly of Aughrim, " Erbherr auf Cullagh und Ballynahown " in Ireland, d. in Vienna 1 Mar. 1751. His niece m. the 1st Baron MacNevin O'Kelly von Aughrim. [8 Freiherrl. Taschcnbuch, 1880, p. 466].
https://archive.org/stream/nobilitiesofeuro01ruviuoft#page/132/mode/2up

Post by p***@gmail.com
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=3vS7ORpv_DoC&pg=PA177 ) and, I think,
to some degree this is why people needed heralds.

I think you are right, The heralds of the Spanish Low Countries were accused by the King in 1652 of failing in their duties and further had not ceased giving attestations of nobility and other titles of honour to diverse persons despite being expressly forbidden by order of the Privy Council in 1643 and royal instructions of 1641. The upshot was that they were made justiciable before the provincial judges and councils. In 1654 they were forbidden from delivering attestations of nobility and the councils forbidden from basing judgements on such certificates. Even as late as 1755 the laxity - to put it at its most diplomatic - of the heralds in their work was observed and they were instructed that when making a submission with regard to a request to the Supreme Council in Vienna for a concession of nobility they should attach all the evidence on which they based the submission and this should be checked by the Privy Council's Fiscal Counsellor for abuse and irregularities. The irregularities and abuse had obviously been in their clients' interest as well as their own.

Post by p***@gmail.com
And Derek, you were probably in Münster last week. I hope what you and
other heraldic experts discussed will be published soon in some form.
Satoru Uemura

Indeed, an enjoyable experience in a very pleasant town listening to some good presentations on recent research. However, the organiser, Torsten Hiltmann is hoping not for a volume of papers presented but for a general work on the history of heralds, written thematically with contributions from a range of authors including some who did not attend the workshop. This will probably take longer than editing up papers.

Derek Howard

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Derek Howard
This is taking my mind back ten years or so but I remember seeing a
reference in a work on the library shelves of the OGHB here in Brussels and
IIRC it was possibly to either the Denis O'Kelly or his son John James
https://archive.org/stream/nobilitiesofeuro01ruviuoft#page/132/mode/2up

Thank you for giving me this reference.
If my memory serves me correclty no O'Kelly was mentioned in Christophe Parry's
Les hérauts d'armes à l'époque moderne, but I will look into it (it will
take some time, as my copy is in a remote location).

Post by Derek Howard
<snip>
I suspect that the change to "d'Aghrim" element may perhaps have been to hint
and suggest a link to the earlier Imperial king of arms and the HRE
<snip>

I have the same impression.

Post by Derek Howard
I think you are right, The heralds of the Spanish Low Countries were accused
by the King in 1652 of failing in their duties and further had not ceased
giving attestations of nobility and other titles of honour to diverse persons
despite being expressly forbidden by order of the Privy Council in 1643 and
royal instructions of 1641. The upshot was that they were made justiciable
before the provincial judges and councils. In 1654 they were forbidden from
delivering attestations of nobility and the councils forbidden from basing
judgements on such certificates. Even as late as 1755 the laxity - to put it
at its most diplomatic - of the heralds in their work was observed and they
were instructed that when making a submission with regard to a request to the
Supreme Council in Vienna for a concession of nobility they should attach all
the evidence on which they based the submission and this should be checked by
the Privy Council's Fiscal Counsellor for abuse and irregularities. The
irregularities and abuse had obviously been in their clients' interest as well
as their own.

Thank you again for updating my knowledge. I did not think the situation was
so well searched. I have an impression that this was a prevalent phenomenon
among those states where heralds functioned "heraldically" and hope someone
will make research on this subject.

Post by Derek Howard
presentations on recent research. However, the organiser, Torsten Hiltmann is
hoping not for a volume of papers presented but for a general work on the
history of heralds, written thematically with contributions from a range of
authors including some who did not attend the workshop. This will probably
take longer than editing up papers.

Anyway I am always glad to hear about a new book. I will, however, wait for long
time as it seems it is an ambitious project.

Satoru Uemura

[Derek Howard]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Derek Howard
This is taking my mind back ten years or so but I remember seeing a
reference in a work on the library shelves of the OGHB here in Brussels and
IIRC it was possibly to either the Denis O'Kelly or his son John James
<https://archive.org/stream/nobilitiesofeuro01ruviuoft#page/132/mode/2up>

Thank you for giving me this reference.
If my memory serves me correclty no O'Kelly was mentioned in Christophe
Parry's Les hérauts d'armes à l'époque moderne, but I will look into it (it
will take some time, as my copy is in a remote location).

I shall be able to return to rummage in the OGHB shelves in May and see if I can dig out the reference I was thinking of. I have not looked in any detail at the later French heralds.

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Derek Howard
I have not yet dug out my old notes but have refreshed a little my memory
<snip>
I suspect that the change to "d'Aghrim" element may perhaps have been to
hint and suggest a link to the earlier Imperial king of arms and the HRE
<snip>

I have the same impression.

Post by Derek Howard
I think you are right, The heralds of the Spanish Low Countries were
accused by the King in 1652 of failing in their duties and further had not
ceased giving attestations of nobility and other titles of honour to
diverse persons despite being expressly forbidden by order of the Privy
Council in 1643 and royal instructions of 1641. The upshot was that they
were made justiciable before the provincial judges and councils. In 1654
they were forbidden from delivering attestations of nobility and the
councils forbidden from basing judgements on such certificates. Even as
late as 1755 the laxity - to put it at its most diplomatic - of the heralds
in their work was observed and they were instructed that when making a
submission with regard to a request to the Supreme Council in Vienna for a
concession of nobility they should attach all the evidence on which they
based the submission and this should be checked by the Privy Council's
Fiscal Counsellor for abuse and irregularities. The irregularities and
abuse had obviously been in their clients' interest as well as their own.

Thank you again for updating my knowledge. I did not think the situation was
so well searched. I have an impression that this was a prevalent phenomenon
among those states where heralds functioned "heraldically" and hope someone
will make research on this subject.

I am not sure anyone has done any proper research on this per se. I was just citing bits of legislation. There has though been some coverage of the notorious fraudsters, the de Launay brothers, both heralds, who issued many false certificates, not least for themselves - see L Galesloot : << Pierre-Albert and Jean de Launay, hérauts d'armes du duché de Brabant: Histoire de leurs procès (1643-1687) ... >>, 1866.

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Derek Howard
presentations on recent research. However, the organiser, Torsten Hiltmann
is hoping not for a volume of papers presented but for a general work on
the history of heralds, written thematically with contributions from a
range of authors including some who did not attend the workshop. This will
probably take longer than editing up papers.

Anyway I am always glad to hear about a new book. I will, however, wait for
long time as it seems it is an ambitious project.

The idea, I think, is to avoid overlap or repetition of earlier works, for instance: Bertrand Schnerb (ed) : << Le héraut, figure européenne (XIVe-XVIe siècle) >> in Revue du Nord, tome 88 - n° 366-367, juillet-décembre 2006 ; and Kate Stevenson [ed.]: - "The Herald in Late Medieval Europe". Woodbridge, The Boydell Press, 2009; though there are a fair number of new studies already done or underway to draw on.

Derek Howard

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Derek Howard
I am not sure anyone has done any proper research on this per se. I was just
citing bits of legislation. There has though been some coverage of the notorious
fraudsters, the de Launay brothers, both heralds, who issued many false certificates,
not least for themselves - see L Galesloot : << Pierre-Albert and Jean de Launay,
herauts d'armes du duche de Brabant: Histoire de leurs proces (1643-1687) ... >>, 1866.

Thank you for giving the reference. The book is available online:
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=WdZCAAAAcAAJ

Post by Derek Howard
Bertrand Schnerb (ed) : << Le heraut, figure europeenne (XIVe-XVIe siecle) >> in Revue du
Nord, tome 88 - n° 366-367, juillet-decembre 2006 ; and Kate Stevenson [ed.]: - "The Herald
in Late Medieval Europe". Woodbridge, The Boydell Press, 2009; though there are a fair
number of new studies already done or underway to draw on.

Hmmm? You who attended the conference are probably right.
The Revue du Nord you mentioned is again available online:
http://www.cairn.info/revue-du-nord-2006-3.htm
Just for your information.

Sator Uemura

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by p***@gmail.com
If my memory serves me correclty no O'Kelly was mentioned in Christophe Parry's
Les hérauts d'armes à l'époque moderne, but I will look into it (it will
take some time, as my copy is in a remote location).

Today I have consulted the following books and found no mention to the
Austrian nor the French O'Kelly:

Duerloo, Luc, Privilegies uitbeelden: De Zuidnederlandse wapenkoningen en wapenkunde in de eeuw der Verlichting, Brussel: Paleis der Academiën, 1991.
Fourez, Lucien, Le Droit héraldique dans les Pays-Bas catholiques, Bruxelles: L'Édition universelle, 1932.
Grolée-Virville, Alain de, Les d'Hozier, Paris: Éditions cardinales, 1978.

Duerloo mentions the Belgian O'Kelly and he states (in p.38) that for the
details of Philippe O'Kelly, see pp.246-248 of the same author's 'Qui était
qui à la chambre héraldique au XVIIIe siècle', in: Le parchemin, 53, 1988,
pp.218-256.
I do not have a copy of 'Qui...', and it may possibly have some mention to
the Austrian or French O'Kelly.
(As I do not understand Dutch, what I wrote above may be incorrect.)

I checked the index of Le Droit héraldique, and found no Kelly nor O'Kelly at
all.
Les d'Hozier has no index and as far as my glance reached, it has no mention
to any O'Kelly. I think, as the French royal heralds in the eighteenth century
had nothing to do with armorial matters, there is few possibility that the book
has any mention to any O'Kelly.

I will next look into those books (it will take another couple of days or
weeks):

Floresta, Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Marqués de la, Heraldos y Reyes de Armas en la Corte de España, Madrid: Prensa y Ediciones Iberoamericanas, 1993.
Parry, Christophe, Les hérauts d'armes à l'époque moderne, Paris: Guénégaud, 2005.

Satoru Uemura

[p***@gmail.com]

I have checked the two books below and found no mention to any French O'Kelly.

Post by p***@gmail.com
Floresta, Alfonso de Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Marqués de la, Heraldos y Reyes de Armas en la Corte de España, Madrid: Prensa y Ediciones Iberoamericanas, 1993.

The author is concerned only with Spain and Spanish Netherlands (not concerened
even with the Austrian period). Alghough I found Philippe-Jean-Baptise O'Kelly's
Recueil analytique des édits... in the bibliography, no clue to French O'Kelly.

Post by p***@gmail.com
Parry, Christophe, Les hérauts d'armes à l'époque moderne, Paris: Guénégaud, 2005.

This book has no index at all, so I checked A) the text; B) Annexe No.3: États
généraux des Grands Écuyers et des rois, hérauts et poursuivants d'armes entre
1575 et 1776; C) Annexe No.8: Almanachs royaux et impériaux (between 1805 and
1830). No O'Kelly.
Possibility remains, however, that there was O'Kelly the French herald,
because: a-1) It is possible that Parry simply did not mentioned him; a-2) I
really made a quick check so I might have missed to picke up him.
b-1) The États généraux gives snapshots of the name of heralds of certain
single years (1575, 1623, 1641...). So some heralds fall into the gap between
these years. For example, Jehan Gratiollet, Alençon herald whom the author
mentions in pp. 97ff. falls in between 1623 and 1641. Another example is Emond
du Boullay, Valois' two sons. They are not mentioned in the text nor in the list
(they were in between 1575 and 1623).
b-2) While the États généraux lists the names of Kings of Arms and Heralds
of Arms, for the pursuivants, it gives only their number. So O'Kelly's name
was possibly hidden behind the number.
(For C, I have nothing to say.)

For Jehan Gratiollet see my transcription of his account:
http://www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~suemura/public/her_decl1635.html

For Emond du Boullay and his two sons, see No.33 of my list of Lorrainian
officers of arms:
http://www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~suemura/public/her_list_lorraine_ooa.html

Satoru Uemura

[p***@gmail.com]

One more thing to add:
There was another office of the Herald King of Arms of the Royal Orders:
http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=jFZAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA669

Howerever, again, it seems that no O'Kelly held the office:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_officiers_de_l%27ordre_du_Saint-Esprit

Satoru Uemura

[e $$iri k_i]

Post by s***@gmail.com
Apparently O'Kelly's innovation didn't stick: "...

pity; I actually kind of liked it, although there is nothing inherently "feminine" about a seashell or a lozenge for that matter. When did the idea of a shell for pilgrims first come about?

[Le Forgeron]

Post by e $$iri k_i
When did the idea of a shell for pilgrims first come about?

about the time of the first pilgrim going to
Saint-Jacques-de-Compostelle (Santiago de Compostela), as displaying the
shell may have been a way to get granted free meal & host along the way
home (from the Christians): the shell was the proof of the pilgrimage..
or not.
That's about middle of the 11th century (AD), more intense in the 12th.

It was one of the three pilgrimage (with Rome & Jerusalem) that was
popular after 1492 (once Granada was back in Christian's area).

[Derek Howard]

Post by s***@gmail.com
Apparently O'Kelly's innovation didn't stick: "...

... there is nothing inherently "feminine" about a seashell ....

The seashell in this case has nothing to do with the coquille St Jacques (Pecten maximus) known in English heraldry as a scallop, which does often have a connection to the concept of pilgrimage (though not necessarily to Santiago de Compostela.

It has everything to do with the image of Aphrodite or Venus Anadyomene being born from a sea shell (see the La nascita di Venere by Botticelli <Loading Image...> ) representing virginity.
The image linked by Seb at >http://oktogon.at/Goebl/images%20goebl/11%20Wappen%20Junge.JPG> specifically states it is for a virgin - by which we may assume he meant unmarried maiden.
The concept behind the image goes back to Pliny and earlier classical Greek representations eg <Loading Image...>.

As a concept I quite like it as a badge though it makes no sense as a support for a crest.

Derek Howard

[e $$iri k_i]

Post by Derek Howard
As a concept I quite like it as a badge though it makes no sense as a support for a crest.
Derek Howard

Agreed. I've seen (non-heraldic) depictions where the upper and lower shells, along with the hinge are included; as a combined floor and backdrop for the focus of the artwork. The bottom shell, parallel to the ground, is viewed edgewise, and looks like a shelf or support. The upper shell is opened perpendicular and behind the focus for a backdrop not unlike the drapery in heraldry. If I was better at photoshop.....

[Derek Howard]

Post by s***@gmail.com
http://oktogon.at/Goebl/frauenwappen.htm
O'Kelly apparently served as the Wappeninspektor at the Imperial Chancellery in Vienna from 1707 to 1751.
http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=IAMS_VU2&afterPDS=true&institution=BL&docId=IAMS032-002029941
http://oktogon.at/Goebl/images%20goebl/08%20Wappen%20Brecher.JPG
http://oktogon.at/Goebl/images%20goebl/09%20Wappen%20Ellers.JPG
According to the article, O'Kelly would sometimes display the crests of female armigers on top of a shell instead of a helm!
http://oktogon.at/Goebl/images%20goebl/11%20Wappen%20Junge.JPG
Apparently O'Kelly's innovation didn't stick: "...der Wappeninspektor William O'Kelly war im Jahr 1751 verstorben, seine Nachfolger griffen jedoch das von ihm entwickelte Muschelmotiv für Frauenwappen nicht mehr auf. Alle Kollegen, die ihm als Wappenzensoren nachfolgten gingen wieder auf die Zeit vor 1700 zurück und machten keine Unterscheidung mehr zwischen männlichen und weiblichen Wappen..."

Thanks for this interesting set of links. Only last week I was discussing William O'Kelly with Michael Göbl of the Vienna Haus-, Hof- und Staatsarchiv who mentioned his name in a presentation of his on Imperial kings of arms. Some years back I had taken an interest in William O'Kelly of Aghrim and his grants to the Ludovisi brothers in 1719. I forget my reasons at the time and will have to dig out my notes but I had come to be very suspicious of these documents. I had come to worry that the Ludovisi's were trying to pull a fast one and were making unsustainable claims in terms of ancestry and nobility that were rubber stamped by O'Kelly (though possibly unknowingly).

Derek Howard