arma duplicata?

[Jaques Dirrick]

I was wondering if anyone has heard of this kind of arms:

I am working on one of the copies of the Tractatus de Armis in which the author talks about 'arma duplicata'
There are two pictures, which I have reproduced at Loading Image... and Loading Image...

My translation of the corresponding text in Evans, of which a shortened version is given in the manuscript:
There are some nobles who bear 'arma duplicata' in the manner of a double tunic as if perchance someone having a tunic of gold doubled with red, wanted to tear or cut the upper part of his tunic, and lift up the rents or cuts a little and powder them with small bells or other leaves or flowers

and the second:
it is thought by some that arms of this kind have their origin from cutters

If I had a better idea of what it was, I could polish the translation more.

The French description is
Il port dore decoppe sur goulez poudre de petitez sonettez dor
and
Il port dargent decope sur sable

Does anyone have an idea?

JD

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Jaques Dirrick
I am working on one of the copies of the Tractatus de Armis in which the author talks about 'arma duplicata'
There are two pictures, which I have reproduced at http://www.cinder.hk/Heraldry/cuttings1.jpg and http://www.cinder.hk/Heraldry/cuttings2.jpg
There are some nobles who bear 'arma duplicata' in the manner of a double tunic as if perchance someone having a tunic of gold doubled with red, wanted to tear or cut the upper part of his tunic, and lift up the rents or cuts a little and powder them with small bells or other leaves or flowers
it is thought by some that arms of this kind have their origin from cutters
If I had a better idea of what it was, I could polish the translation more.
The French description is
Il port dore decoppe sur goulez poudre de petitez sonettez dor
and
Il port dargent decope sur sable
Does anyone have an idea?
JD

This may perhaps refer to the fashion for slashed clothes, where there were two layers of different coloured fabric, the top one with slashes in it through which the bottom layer was pulled up. This fashion seems to have started towards the end of the 14th century, at about the same time as Johannes was writing. A similar fashion appeared again in Tudor times.

There was, at an earlier time around the second half of the 13th century, an heraldic fashion for patterned fabrics on shields, diaspré and paillé, used in much the same way as furs. But unlike furs, the use of these fabrics, mainly in the north of France, soon disappeared. There is an article about them by H S London in 'Aspilogia II: Rolls of Arms Henry III' Appendix II, 'Diaper and the Arms of Champagne' pp 164-166.

Peter Howarth

[Jaques Dirrick]

Aha, thanks. I have been let down by my lack of fashion sense ;)

Presumably I should translate it as jags and slashes.
The reference says, "Et putatur a quibusdam quod huiusce arma habuerunt originem a scissoribus"
I am guessing the scissoribus is referring to tailors then.

Thanks for the reference. I will order it in.

JD

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Jaques Dirrick
Aha, thanks. I have been let down by my lack of fashion sense ;)
Presumably I should translate it as jags and slashes.
The reference says, "Et putatur a quibusdam quod huiusce arma habuerunt originem a scissoribus"
I am guessing the scissoribus is referring to tailors then.
Thanks for the reference. I will order it in.
JD

I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but R E Latham, 'Revised Medieval Latin Word List', has 'scissor' (and other variants) meaning "cutter (of cloth), tailor." There is also an entry for 'ciceserum': "c 1350, 'cut', tailoring; 'slashing' (of clothes) c 1565". The last definition is interesting even if it is almost a century after your text.

Peter Howarth

[Jaques Dirrick]

Post by Peter Howarth
I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but R E Latham, 'Revised Medieval Latin Word List', has 'scissor' (and other variants) meaning "cutter (of cloth), tailor." There is also an entry for 'ciceserum': "c 1350, 'cut', tailoring; 'slashing' (of clothes) c 1565". The last definition is interesting even if it is almost a century after your text.

Thanks very much. I should have given Latham his due! Can I ask what you think a good translation of 'duplicata' would be? Latham has similar words meaning doublet, or lined, so given the original text:

Quidam sunt nobiles qui portant arma duplicia ad modum unius duplicis tunicae ut si quis forte habens unam tunicam de colore aureo duplicatam cum rubeo

I should refine my translation to:
There are some nobles who bear 'arma duplicia' in the manner of a doublet as if perchance someone having a tunic of gold lined with red...
(duplicata is in the actual Latin blazon, rather than the description)


Do you think 'doublety' would be stretching things too far?
I wonder who these nobles were...

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Jaques Dirrick

Post by Peter Howarth
I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but R E Latham, 'Revised Medieval Latin Word List', has 'scissor' (and other variants) meaning "cutter (of cloth), tailor." There is also an entry for 'ciceserum': "c 1350, 'cut', tailoring; 'slashing' (of clothes) c 1565". The last definition is interesting even if it is almost a century after your text.

Quidam sunt nobiles qui portant arma duplicia ad modum unius duplicis tunicae ut si quis forte habens unam tunicam de colore aureo duplicatam cum rubeo
There are some nobles who bear 'arma duplicia' in the manner of a doublet as if perchance someone having a tunic of gold lined with red...
(duplicata is in the actual Latin blazon, rather than the description)
Do you think 'doublety' would be stretching things too far?
I wonder who these nobles were...

Unfortunately my mediaeval Latin is normally limited to administrative documents rather than literary works. But I would feel inclined to use 'lined' for both 'duplicis' and 'duplicatam':

There are some nobles who bear 'arma duplicata' in the style of a lined tunic, as if someone were casually wearing a tunic of gold lined with red ...

As to who these nobles might be, too many writers on heraldry make things up, or copy from someone else without checking properly, or describe what they think ought to be the case. And in the Middle Ages concepts of historical truth were a lot vaguer than they are now. I have not come across any examples of 'arma duplicata' in my study of mediaeval heraldry in England. It is of course possible that the idea came from France or Germany. I think I have seen examples of feathers used as tinctures in German heraldry, but at a later date.

Peter Howarth

[Jaques Dirrick]

Thanks, I will go with lined then.

He also talks about arma umbrata, which presumably come into the same category.

The illuminator of this manuscript wasn't particularly good, so sometimes it is hard to tell whether the arms depicted are something strange, or just poorly drawn.

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Jaques Dirrick
He also talks about arma umbrata, which presumably come into the same category.

JFYI:
https://books.google.com/books?id=m0tbAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA247
https://books.google.com/books?id=m0tbAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA248

You might have already consulted Upton...

Satoru Uemura

[Jaques Dirrick]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Jaques Dirrick
He also talks about arma umbrata, which presumably come into the same category.

https://books.google.com/books?id=m0tbAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA247
https://books.google.com/books?id=m0tbAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA248
You might have already consulted Upton...
Satoru Uemura

Thanks again. De Studio Militari so similar to the Tractatus De Armis, in the parts on heraldry, it is almost an exact copy. I must get around to looking for publications on their relationship.

[p***@gmail.com]

Do you mean Evan John Jones?
Curiously, today I came across the same error (so I believe) on p.111 n.72 of
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1792/1/1792.pdf

(Excuse me for not answering your question!)

Satoru Uemura

[Jaques Dirrick]

Post by p***@gmail.com
Do you mean Evan John Jones?
Curiously, today I came across the same error (so I believe) on p.111 n.72 of
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/1792/1/1792.pdf
(Excuse me for not answering your question!)
Satoru Uemura

Mea culpa. You are indeed right, I should have said Evan Jones :(