Closure of Irish State Heraldic Museum

Post by Sean J Murphy
As I noted back in 2007, the National Library of Ireland prepared for
the centenary of the opening of the Heraldic Museum in April 1909 by
closing the place down without any kind of public notice. There is no
evidence of any protest from the Chief Herald, and the Museum Trustees,
including if I am not mistaken a former supporter of Terence MacCarthy,
appear to have faded away (legally would their consent to closure not be
necessary?). I find from a recent FOI release that at least one other
heraldist was puzzled by the Museum's closure. A member of the Heraldry
Society, and characteristically apparently not Irish, he wrote to the
Library Director on 12 July 2008 stating that when he visited Kildare
Street 'the Heraldry Museum had disappeared and no one could tell me
what had happened to it!', going on to enquire as to the fate of the
historic artefacts and where they would be shown again.
Director Aongus Ó hAonghusa replied as follows on 21 July 2008: 'The
Museum closed in late 2007 following a review by the Board of the
National Library of the Museum's usage and its role in the context to
the delivery of the Board's strategic aims particularly in relation to
education and outreach. The artefacts previously on display in the
Museum are in storage pending a decision by the Board regarding the most
appropriate method of making available for viewing by the public.'
Perhaps going forward the Library's strategic review in the context of
education and outreach will result in the reinstatement of the Heraldic
Museum by April next. But in view of the reduction of the Library's
budget as a result of the current economic crisis, its threatened
amalgamation with the National Archives, and its squandering of €700,000
when caught in a Joycean manuscripts 'sting', I wonder if this will come
to pass.
Sean Murphy
2008 review, Directory of Irish Genealogyhttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/dir/intro.htm

Hello Sean,

I’m a little puzzled by this latest report: Many public offices /
museums can close –temporarily for a variety of reasons; my last time
in Scotland the Kelvengrove museum was closed for remodeling – my wife
had traveled some 8000 miles to see it so she was rather put out. (How
do you do you do Glasgow without Kelvengrove?).

What puzzles me is that you don’t seem to go to the right channels to
find out why the heraldic museum closed – **somebody** at the library
will know. If you are an author, you must have a connection someplace
that can fill you in.

I’m sorry Sean, but your lack of reasonable follow-up; with a lawyer
(not expensive) for [hidden records] and now a closure [conspiracy]
makes it really seem that you have some sort of ax to grind and that’s
what motivates you here. Someone’s bogus genealogy will always be
bogus if proved so and the evidence will stand on its own no matter
what the perpetrator says beyond that. And MacCarthy's gone, forget
him. There doesn’t seem to be any hard evidence to support this thing
you seem to have against the Chief Herald of Ireland, and if you are
so competent, why are not working with him to correct matters that you
think need attention?

I don’t get it.

Regards - (I mean that)
Greg

Sean J Murphy

2009-01-07 19:48:07 UTC

Hello Sean,
I’m a little puzzled by this latest report: Many public offices /
museums can close –temporarily for a variety of reasons; my last time
in Scotland the Kelvengrove museum was closed for remodeling – my wife
had traveled some 8000 miles to see it so she was rather put out. (How
do you do you do Glasgow without Kelvengrove?).
What puzzles me is that you don’t seem to go to the right channels to
find out why the heraldic museum closed – **somebody** at the library
will know. If you are an author, you must have a connection someplace
that can fill you in.
I’m sorry Sean, but your lack of reasonable follow-up; with a lawyer
(not expensive) for [hidden records] and now a closure [conspiracy]
makes it really seem that you have some sort of ax to grind and that’s
what motivates you here. Someone’s bogus genealogy will always be
bogus if proved so and the evidence will stand on its own no matter
what the perpetrator says beyond that. And MacCarthy's gone, forget
him. There doesn’t seem to be any hard evidence to support this thing
you seem to have against the Chief Herald of Ireland, and if you are
so competent, why are not working with him to correct matters that you
think need attention?
I don’t get it.
Regards - (I mean that)
Greg

Lawyer 'not expensive'?!! I'll warrant that the Kelvingrove closure was
well publicised in advance and with at least an approximate re-opening
date specified. The website indicates that Kelvingrove is now open:
http://www.glasgowmuseums.com/venue/page.cfm?venueid=4&itemid=19
The State Heraldic Museum in Kildare Street, Dublin, was closed without
notice or explanation in late 2007, and remains closed with no firm
indication of when or if it will re-open. My enquiries to National
Library management concerning the location and accessibility of the
Irish Crown Jewels exhibits formerly on display proved fruitless
(http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/irhismys/jewels.htm).
Courtesy of the efforts of the member of the Heraldry Society noted
above, I have given you the explanation of the National Library's
principal manager. You may find it acceptable that the fate of one of
the world's few (some say only) heraldic museums is so uncertain a
matter of months away from its centenary. I do not.

Sean Murphy

s***@comcast.net

2009-01-07 21:28:25 UTC

Hello Sean,
I’m a little puzzled by this latest report: Many public offices /
museums can close –temporarily for a variety of reasons; my last time
in Scotland the Kelvengrove museum was closed for remodeling – my wife
had traveled some 8000 miles to see it so she was rather put out. (How
do you do you do Glasgow without Kelvengrove?).
What puzzles me is that you don’t seem to go to the right channels to
find out why the heraldic museum closed – **somebody** at the library
will know. If you are an author, you must have a connection someplace
that can fill you in.
I’m sorry Sean, but your lack of reasonable follow-up; with a lawyer
(not expensive) for [hidden records] and now a closure [conspiracy]
makes it really seem that you have some sort of ax to grind and that’s
what motivates you here. Someone’s bogus genealogy will always be
bogus if proved so and the evidence will stand on its own no matter
what the perpetrator says beyond that. And MacCarthy's gone, forget
him. There doesn’t seem to be any hard evidence to support this thing
you seem to have against the Chief Herald of Ireland, and if you are
so competent, why are not working with him to correct matters that you
think need attention?
I don’t get it.
Regards - (I mean that)
Greg

Lawyer 'not expensive'?!! I'll warrant that the Kelvingrove closure was
well publicised in advance and with at least an approximate re-opening
date specified. The website indicates that Kelvingrove is now open:http://www.glasgowmuseums.com/venue/page.cfm?venueid=4&itemid=19
The State Heraldic Museum in Kildare Street, Dublin, was closed without
notice or explanation in late 2007, and remains closed with no firm
indication of when or if it will re-open. My enquiries to National
Library management concerning the location and accessibility of the
Irish Crown Jewels exhibits formerly on display proved fruitless
(http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/irhismys/jewels.htm).
Courtesy of the efforts of the member of the Heraldry Society noted
above, I have given you the explanation of the National Library's
principal manager. You may find it acceptable that the fate of one of
the world's few (some say only) heraldic museums is so uncertain a
matter of months away from its centenary. I do not.
Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Hi Sean,

Perhaps Library management is not the best source:(management usually
is not).
As this is a state office, open and answerable to the public, it does
seem that it’s closure prim facie is illegal. (That should be part of
your investigation - beyond any management). It seems only reasonable
then that a member of Parliament could be obligated to conduct an
investigation or the filing of an injunction only requires one court
appearance, and of course someone from the library would have to
explain himself to a judge. And if found to be guilty of some
transgression the library could also be made to suffer the cost.

I certainly don’t find it acceptable and I doubt anyone does. The
question however is what viable option is there to solve the problem?
And how come the national media is not making hay over this? Does
nobody really care or what?

Andrew Chaplin

2009-01-07 22:07:33 UTC

Lawyer 'not expensive'?!! I'll warrant that the Kelvingrove closure was well
publicised in advance and with at least an approximate re-opening date
http://www.glasgowmuseums.com/venue/page.cfm?venueid=4&itemid=19
The State Heraldic Museum in Kildare Street, Dublin, was closed without
notice or explanation in late 2007, and remains closed with no firm
indication of when or if it will re-open. My enquiries to National Library
management concerning the location and accessibility of the Irish Crown
Jewels exhibits formerly on display proved fruitless
(http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/irhismys/jewels.htm). Courtesy of
the efforts of the member of the Heraldry Society noted above, I have given
you the explanation of the National Library's principal manager. You may
find it acceptable that the fate of one of the world's few (some say only)
heraldic museums is so uncertain a matter of months away from its centenary.
I do not.

I am not sure how closely the Dáil follows the Westminster model, Sean, but
might a member be coaxed into placing a "Question for Written Answer" or some
such on the Order Paper? I have had a look at the Standing Orders at
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/proceduralDocuments/STANDING-ORDERS-ENGLISH.pdf,
and it looks as if they roughly parallel Canadian practice, and the government
is obliged to respond. (Yes, I know all too well that, in parliaments, a
"response" is not the same thing as an answer.)

On the point of scotiaga about legality of a closure, have you looked at the
budget documents tabled in the Oireachtas? Do the library's show that the Vote
that included funding for the museum had been reduced? They may have snuck it
in, and since such documents are already public, they will not usually be
provided in an FOI request.

Happy hunting.

--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Sean J Murphy

2009-01-07 23:38:21 UTC

I am not sure how closely the Dáil follows the Westminster model, Sean, but
might a member be coaxed into placing a "Question for Written Answer" or some
such on the Order Paper? I have had a look at the Standing Orders at
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/proceduralDocuments/STANDING-ORDERS-ENGLISH.pdf,
and it looks as if they roughly parallel Canadian practice, and the government
is obliged to respond. (Yes, I know all too well that, in parliaments, a
"response" is not the same thing as an answer.)
On the point of scotiaga about legality of a closure, have you looked at the
budget documents tabled in the Oireachtas? Do the library's show that the Vote
that included funding for the museum had been reduced? They may have snuck it
in, and since such documents are already public, they will not usually be
provided in an FOI request.
Happy hunting.

Having persuaded representatives to table a number of Dáil parliamentary
questions on various genealogical and heraldic issues since the time of
Mac Carthy Mór, I would tend to think that the closure of the Heraldic
Museum is not a big enough deal to go that route (most of my recent
parliamentary contacts have related to the €700,000 Joyce manuscripts
'sting'). Yet although a Dáil answer would probably be a verbatim
repetition of Director Ó hAonghusa's response to the Heraldry Society
member's query I quoted, I will consider the suggestion in any case. I
now have presumably the full Heraldic Museum file from the National
Library via FOI, which shows that no staff opposed the closure of the
Museum and the use of its space for the ongoing 'Strangers to Citizens'
exhibition. Again, the released file shows that only the Heraldry
Society member and myself thought the matter of the Museum closure
worthy of comment or enquiry.

The fact that the new exhibition contains an heraldic element and is a
laudable presentation in itself probably satisfies most, but I still
regret the unannounced closure of the Museum and the removal of its
exhibits from public display (I badly needed access to and copies of
some of the Irish Crown Jewels items for my centenary report). I have
earlier described the Museum as neglected and unloved in recent years,
primarily I suspect because of the display of the banners of Terence
MacCarthy and some other bogus and questionable chiefs. At some point
the Museum was probably deemed to have changed from a semi-private
adjunct governed by trustees to a mere exhibition room under the
complete control of the Library. The released file is virtually silent
on the trustees, who as I have said probably just faded away (Terence's
former supporter with embarrassment no doubt). I suspect that all the
legalities were not observed (familiar story) and will continue to
explore the issue. The online Arts Department documents listing
reduction of the Library's budget (there may be more cuts due to
catastrophic collapse in tax revenue) does not mention the Museum as
such. Hood has a good account of the history of the Museum in 'Royal
Roots, Republican Inheritance' from the time of its foundation by Ulster
Nevile Wilkinson in 1908-09, the official opening by Lord Aberdeen
taking place in Dublin Castle on 20 April 1909.

Sean Murphy

s***@comcast.net

2009-01-08 01:04:56 UTC

I am not sure how closely the Dáil follows the Westminster model, Sean, but
might a member be coaxed into placing a "Question for Written Answer" or some
such on the Order Paper? I have had a look at the Standing Orders at
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/proceduralDocuments/STANDING-ORDER...,
and it looks as if they roughly parallel Canadian practice, and the government
is obliged to respond. (Yes, I know all too well that, in parliaments, a
"response" is not the same thing as an answer.)
On the point of scotiaga about legality of a closure, have you looked at the
budget documents tabled in the Oireachtas? Do the library's show that the Vote
that included funding for the museum had been reduced? They may have snuck it
in, and since such documents are already public, they will not usually be
provided in an FOI request.
Happy hunting.

Having persuaded representatives to table a number of Dáil parliamentary
questions on various genealogical and heraldic issues since the time of
Mac Carthy Mór, I would tend to think that the closure of the Heraldic
Museum is not a big enough deal to go that route (most of my recent
parliamentary contacts have related to the €700,000 Joyce manuscripts
'sting'). Yet although a Dáil answer would probably be a verbatim
repetition of Director Ó hAonghusa's response to the Heraldry Society
member's query I quoted, I will consider the suggestion in any case. I
now have presumably the full Heraldic Museum file from the National
Library via FOI, which shows that no staff opposed the closure of the
Museum and the use of its space for the ongoing 'Strangers to Citizens'
exhibition. Again, the released file shows that only the Heraldry
Society member and myself thought the matter of the Museum closure
worthy of comment or enquiry.
The fact that the new exhibition contains an heraldic element and is a
laudable presentation in itself probably satisfies most, but I still
regret the unannounced closure of the Museum and the removal of its
exhibits from public display (I badly needed access to and copies of
some of the Irish Crown Jewels items for my centenary report). I have
earlier described the Museum as neglected and unloved in recent years,
primarily I suspect because of the display of the banners of Terence
MacCarthy and some other bogus and questionable chiefs. At some point
the Museum was probably deemed to have changed from a semi-private
adjunct governed by trustees to a mere exhibition room under the
complete control of the Library. The released file is virtually silent
on the trustees, who as I have said probably just faded away (Terence's
former supporter with embarrassment no doubt). I suspect that all the
legalities were not observed (familiar story) and will continue to
explore the issue. The online Arts Department documents listing
reduction of the Library's budget (there may be more cuts due to
catastrophic collapse in tax revenue) does not mention the Museum as
such. Hood has a good account of the history of the Museum in 'Royal
Roots, Republican Inheritance' from the time of its foundation by Ulster
Nevile Wilkinson in 1908-09, the official opening by Lord Aberdeen
taking place in Dublin Castle on 20 April 1909.
Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The idea that the museum was closed to make it an exhibit hall is a
sound idea for a cash strapped library. I'll bet that's what it was;
thanks for adding that.

As far as getting to see items for research purposes - I dunno, a
court appearence shouldn't be that much money, these are items of
national interest, someone for the library - with an explaination
would have to appear, and who knows? it may be more trouble for the
library than it's worth and they may not wish to draw attention.... I
think it's worth a try.

Sean J Murphy

2009-01-08 11:35:17 UTC

. . . . .
The fact that the new exhibition contains an heraldic element and is a
laudable presentation in itself probably satisfies most, but I still
regret the unannounced closure of the Museum and the removal of its
exhibits from public display (I badly needed access to and copies of
some of the Irish Crown Jewels items for my centenary report). I have
earlier described the Museum as neglected and unloved in recent years,
primarily I suspect because of the display of the banners of Terence
MacCarthy and some other bogus and questionable chiefs. At some point
the Museum was probably deemed to have changed from a semi-private
adjunct governed by trustees to a mere exhibition room under the
complete control of the Library. The released file is virtually silent
on the trustees, who as I have said probably just faded away (Terence's
former supporter with embarrassment no doubt). I suspect that all the
legalities were not observed (familiar story) and will continue to
explore the issue. The online Arts Department documents listing
reduction of the Library's budget (there may be more cuts due to
catastrophic collapse in tax revenue) does not mention the Museum as
such. Hood has a good account of the history of the Museum in 'Royal
Roots, Republican Inheritance' from the time of its foundation by Ulster
Nevile Wilkinson in 1908-09, the official opening by Lord Aberdeen
taking place in Dublin Castle on 20 April 1909.
Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The idea that the museum was closed to make it an exhibit hall is a
sound idea for a cash strapped library. I'll bet that's what it was;
thanks for adding that.
As far as getting to see items for research purposes - I dunno, a
court appearence shouldn't be that much money, these are items of
national interest, someone for the library - with an explaination
would have to appear, and who knows? it may be more trouble for the
library than it's worth and they may not wish to draw attention.... I
think it's worth a try.

Rather the opposite in fact, as the decision to clear out the Heraldic
Museum to make way for a new exhibition was made in 2005, when the
National Library was still awash with Celtic Tiger cash. It was in that
year, for example, that the Library was taken for €700,000 in an
elaborate Joyce manuscripts 'sting' (an elected representative's
expression, not mine, for which see
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1010/1223560351190.html).
Ironically, €700,000 is precisely the sum that the 'Strangers to
Citizens' exhibition was first estimated to cost, though to be fair
Director Ó hAonghusa asked for that to be whittled down (I can't say
what the actual cost was as there is no final account in the file I
received; memo, ask for same).

If Library staff had been serious about reinstating the Heraldic Museum,
then they would have prepared a properly costed plan for this, when cash
was available. They would have also consulted with informed individuals,
including dare I suggest myself who religiously each year brought
students for a tour of the Museum, until like the Heraldry Society
member I found it had vanished. The file given to me contains no such
plan for reinstatement, and as the Irish public finances collapse I
doubt if it would be high on the list of priorities of bureaucrats
struggling to protect their turf as government orders still more savage
cutbacks.

As for the courts, Greg, I am aware that compared to the cunning grey
ones my career decisions and strategies may appear foolish. But one
error I have not made so far is to place myself voluntarily in the hands
of lawyers. Which is not to say I wouldn't put up a good fight if any of
the various legal threats against me come to pass, and again I should
warn that each and every one of my files is designed for efficient
presentation in court (another unfortunate online commentator is
currently before the High Court on account of the Joyce affair).

Sean Murphy

s***@comcast.net

2009-01-08 21:58:38 UTC

The idea that the museum was closed to make it an exhibit hall is a
sound idea for a cash strapped library. I'll bet that's what it was;
thanks for adding that.
As far as getting to see items for research purposes - I dunno, a
court appearence shouldn't be that much money, these are items of
national interest, someone for the library - with an explaination
would have to appear, and who knows? it may be more trouble for the
library than it's worth and they may not wish to draw attention.... I
think it's worth a try.

Rather the opposite in fact, as the decision to clear out the Heraldic
Museum to make way for a new exhibition was made in 2005, when the
National Library was still awash with Celtic Tiger cash. It was in that
year, for example, that the Library was taken for ï¿½700,000 in an
elaborate Joyce manuscripts 'sting' (an elected representative's
expression, not mine, for which seehttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1010/1223560351190.html).
Ironically, ï¿½700,000 is precisely the sum that the 'Strangers to
Citizens' exhibition was first estimated to cost, though to be fair
Director ï¿½ hAonghusa asked for that to be whittled down (I can't say
what the actual cost was as there is no final account in the file I
received; memo, ask for same).
If Library staff had been serious about reinstating the Heraldic Museum,
then they would have prepared a properly costed plan for this, when cash
was available. They would have also consulted with informed individuals,
including dare I suggest myself who religiously each year brought
students for a tour of the Museum, until like the Heraldry Society
member I found it had vanished. The file given to me contains no such
plan for reinstatement, and as the Irish public finances collapse I
doubt if it would be high on the list of priorities of bureaucrats
struggling to protect their turf as government orders still more savage
cutbacks.
As for the courts, Greg, I am aware that compared to the cunning grey
ones my career decisions and strategies may appear foolish. But one
error I have not made so far is to place myself voluntarily in the hands
of lawyers. Which is not to say I wouldn't put up a good fight if any of
the various legal threats against me come to pass, and again I should
warn that each and every one of my files is designed for efficient
presentation in court (another unfortunate online commentator is
currently before the High Court on account of the Joyce affair).
Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Quote : As for the courts

Hi Sean,

Yeah, if the library shut for financial reasons, then there's not much
that can be done. Courts to file an injunction etc are not expensive,
it's done all the time and is very effective. As I say it usually only
takes one appearance. As for these liable or slander threats etc:
when I know I'm right - I beg the other party to file charges or take
me to court - they never do and that says it all: it works every time.

Regards
Greg

g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk

2009-01-17 18:03:02 UTC

I am not sure how closely the Dáil follows the Westminster model, Sean, but
might a member be coaxed into placing a "Question for Written Answer" or some
such on the Order Paper? I have had a look at the Standing Orders at
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/proceduralDocuments/STANDING-ORDER...,
and it looks as if they roughly parallel Canadian practice, and the government
is obliged to respond. (Yes, I know all too well that, in parliaments, a
"response" is not the same thing as an answer.)
On the point of scotiaga about legality of a closure, have you looked at the
budget documents tabled in the Oireachtas? Do the library's show that the Vote
that included funding for the museum had been reduced? They may have snuck it
in, and since such documents are already public, they will not usually be
provided in an FOI request.
Happy hunting.

Having persuaded representatives to table a number of Dáil parliamentary
questions on various genealogical and heraldic issues since the time of
Mac Carthy Mór, I would tend to think that the closure of the Heraldic
Museum is not a big enough deal to go that route (most of my recent
parliamentary contacts have related to the €700,000 Joyce manuscripts
'sting'). Yet although a Dáil answer would probably be a verbatim
repetition of Director Ó hAonghusa's response to the Heraldry Society
member's query I quoted, I will consider the suggestion in any case. I
now have presumably the full Heraldic Museum file from the National
Library via FOI, which shows that no staff opposed the closure of the
Museum and the use of its space for the ongoing 'Strangers to Citizens'
exhibition. Again, the released file shows that only the Heraldry
Society member and myself thought the matter of the Museum closure
worthy of comment or enquiry.
The fact that the new exhibition contains an heraldic element and is a
laudable presentation in itself probably satisfies most, but I still
regret the unannounced closure of the Museum and the removal of its
exhibits from public display (I badly needed access to and copies of
some of the Irish Crown Jewels items for my centenary report). I have
earlier described the Museum as neglected and unloved in recent years,
primarily I suspect because of the display of the banners of Terence
MacCarthy and some other bogus and questionable chiefs. At some point
the Museum was probably deemed to have changed from a semi-private
adjunct governed by trustees to a mere exhibition room under the
complete control of the Library. The released file is virtually silent
on the trustees, who as I have said probably just faded away (Terence's
former supporter with embarrassment no doubt). I suspect that all the
legalities were not observed (familiar story) and will continue to
explore the issue. The online Arts Department documents listing
reduction of the Library's budget (there may be more cuts due to
catastrophic collapse in tax revenue) does not mention the Museum as
such. Hood has a good account of the history of the Museum in 'Royal
Roots, Republican Inheritance' from the time of its foundation by Ulster
Nevile Wilkinson in 1908-09, the official opening by Lord Aberdeen
taking place in Dublin Castle on 20 April 1909.
Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The idea that the museum was closed to make it an exhibit hall is a
sound idea for a cash strapped library. I'll bet that's what it was;
thanks for adding that.
As far as getting to see items for research purposes - I dunno, a
court appearence shouldn't be that much money, these are items of
national interest, someone for the library - with an explaination
would have to appear, and who knows? it may be more trouble for the
library than it's worth and they may not wish to draw attention.... I
think it's worth a try.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

'a court appearence shouldn't be that much money'. Are you serious? Go
near a court and the legal profession will rob you of everything you
own, strip you naked and then spit you out - ready for the next dumb
fool to come along.

s***@comcast.net

2009-01-18 18:38:36 UTC

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk

I am not sure how closely the Dáil follows the Westminster model, Sean, but
might a member be coaxed into placing a "Question for Written Answer" or some
such on the Order Paper? I have had a look at the Standing Orders at
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/proceduralDocuments/STANDING-ORDER...,
and it looks as if they roughly parallel Canadian practice, and the government
is obliged to respond. (Yes, I know all too well that, in parliaments, a
"response" is not the same thing as an answer.)
On the point of scotiaga about legality of a closure, have you looked at the
budget documents tabled in the Oireachtas? Do the library's show that the Vote
that included funding for the museum had been reduced? They may have snuck it
in, and since such documents are already public, they will not usually be
provided in an FOI request.
Happy hunting.

Having persuaded representatives to table a number of Dáil parliamentary
questions on various genealogical and heraldic issues since the time of
Mac Carthy Mór, I would tend to think that the closure of the Heraldic
Museum is not a big enough deal to go that route (most of my recent
parliamentary contacts have related to the €700,000 Joyce manuscripts
'sting'). Yet although a Dáil answer would probably be a verbatim
repetition of Director Ó hAonghusa's response to the Heraldry Society
member's query I quoted, I will consider the suggestion in any case. I
now have presumably the full Heraldic Museum file from the National
Library via FOI, which shows that no staff opposed the closure of the
Museum and the use of its space for the ongoing 'Strangers to Citizens'
exhibition. Again, the released file shows that only the Heraldry
Society member and myself thought the matter of the Museum closure
worthy of comment or enquiry.
The fact that the new exhibition contains an heraldic element and is a
laudable presentation in itself probably satisfies most, but I still
regret the unannounced closure of the Museum and the removal of its
exhibits from public display (I badly needed access to and copies of
some of the Irish Crown Jewels items for my centenary report). I have
earlier described the Museum as neglected and unloved in recent years,
primarily I suspect because of the display of the banners of Terence
MacCarthy and some other bogus and questionable chiefs. At some point
the Museum was probably deemed to have changed from a semi-private
adjunct governed by trustees to a mere exhibition room under the
complete control of the Library. The released file is virtually silent
on the trustees, who as I have said probably just faded away (Terence's
former supporter with embarrassment no doubt). I suspect that all the
legalities were not observed (familiar story) and will continue to
explore the issue. The online Arts Department documents listing
reduction of the Library's budget (there may be more cuts due to
catastrophic collapse in tax revenue) does not mention the Museum as
such. Hood has a good account of the history of the Museum in 'Royal
Roots, Republican Inheritance' from the time of its foundation by Ulster
Nevile Wilkinson in 1908-09, the official opening by Lord Aberdeen
taking place in Dublin Castle on 20 April 1909.
Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -
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The idea that the museum was closed to make it an exhibit hall is a
sound idea for a cash strapped library. I'll bet that's what it was;
thanks for adding that.
As far as getting to see items for research purposes - I dunno, a
court appearence shouldn't be that much money, these are items of
national interest, someone for the library - with an explaination
would have to appear, and who knows? it may be more trouble for the
library than it's worth and they may not wish to draw attention.... I
think it's worth a try.- Hide quoted text -
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If you don't have a clue, then yes - you can get ripped off. If one
on the other hand is thinking person, then a consultation to determine
viability and legal standing and one court appearance should do it.
There is a precedent somewhere for this.

Michael Merrigan

2009-01-08 01:24:36 UTC

On Jan 7, 10:07 pm, "Andrew Chaplin"