The 5 Baronies of Abergavenny

[Graham Milne]

Hi all,

My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
Abergavenny have been created and have added the following to my webpage at:

http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm

'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.

The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.

Any comments?

Graham

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767.
He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant.
Any comments?

Yes: apart from the Crown and certain perquisites of peerages that can
pass via versions of female primogeniture (eg Mountbatten of Burma),
English armorial law knows no distinctions between daughters - they are
coheirs without any seniority among them. Thus, one would expect that
the Senior arms did not pass to the daughter of the first marriage, but
to all three daughters equally (strictly speaking, it did not "pass"
but gave rise to a right to be quartered; accordingly, if their
respective husbands did not themselves bear arms, the Senior arms could
not be displayed). I know of no English grant of arms which specifies
that the arms may pass to the eldest daughter to the exclusion of any
younger: is this what the grant in question says?

I'm afraid I would need to look at CP myself in order to be able to
comment on the Abergavenny creations.

MA-R

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by m***@btinternet.com

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767.
He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
, by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant.
Any comments?

Yes: apart from the Crown and certain perquisites of peerages that can
pass via versions of female primogeniture (eg Mountbatten of Burma),
English armorial law knows no distinctions between daughters - they are
coheirs without any seniority among them. Thus, one would expect that
the Senior arms did not pass to the daughter of the first marriage, but
to all three daughters equally (strictly speaking, it did not "pass"
but gave rise to a right to be quartered; accordingly, if their
respective husbands did not themselves bear arms, the Senior arms could
not be displayed). I know of no English grant of arms which specifies
that the arms may pass to the eldest daughter to the exclusion of any
younger: is this what the grant in question says?
I'm afraid I would need to look at CP myself in order to be able to
comment on the Abergavenny creations.

I've had a look at CP and there is no Charlotte (1736-1811), de jure
(that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier Baron(ess) in
the Peerage of England. The 16th baron of the second creation, was
William Neville who d. 1744 and was succeeded by the 17th baron who was
George nevill who became the first earl Abergavenny and died in 1785.
His son, the 18th baron and second earl, died in 1843. So I can't see
where Charlotte could possibly have fitted in. Further it seems
from the text that this barony descended by heirs male not heirs
general.

I totally support the comments about inheritance of quarterings, apart
from the fact than some early medieval quarterings were inherited by
wealth of the bride not by her being a genetic heiress.

[Graham Milne]

Tim,

CP (Vol. I, p. 40-41) explains that Jane (Charlotte's mother) was heir
general of her father. The pedigree on p. 41 states 'Jane, who (on the death
of her sister Anne in 1736/7) became heir general of her father George
Nevill, sum by writ 1695 as Lord Bergavenny. She m. John Abel Walter and d.
1786.' Note c). on p. 40 also refers. So CP effectively says that Jane was
de jure 14th baroness (by Burke's reckoning - 16th by CP reckoning). Jane's
son, John Walter, was 15th baron de jure and his heir, Charlotte Senior nee
Walter, his sister, was 16th baroness de jure (by Burke's reckoning). De
facto, the 16th baron (by CP reckoning) was William Nevill, summoned in
1724 - but he was the 1st baron of the 5th creation in reality and he had no
legal right to the barony (of the 4th creation) created by writ in 1695. I
think the pedigree on p. 41 gives the best overall picture; this shows Jane.
When Charlotte died in 1811 the barony by writ (of the 4th creation) fell
into abeyance between her two daughters (her husband, Ascanius, had an elder
daughter, Helen, by his first marriage). As I have said in another post, I
am not a co-heir of this barony but it did pass into the Senior family and
it is possible that the heirs of one of the daughters are now extinct and
that there is someone out there who is Baron of Bergavenny of the 4th (1695)
creation. This is what intrigues me. None of the baronies of (A)Bergavenny
were created by patent, they were all baronies by writ - so they are
descendible to heirs general. CP makes this clear. Burke's (107th ed.) says
that the 1604 case made the barony created by writ in 1392 descendible to
heirs male; this is nonsense (legally impossible) as CP makes clear (p. 34
n. a) i.e. 'Mary [...] was unquestionably entitled to any barony in fee
possessed by her late father.'

Graham

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by m***@btinternet.com

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767.
He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
, by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant.
Any comments?

Yes: apart from the Crown and certain perquisites of peerages that can
pass via versions of female primogeniture (eg Mountbatten of Burma),
English armorial law knows no distinctions between daughters - they are
coheirs without any seniority among them. Thus, one would expect that
the Senior arms did not pass to the daughter of the first marriage, but
to all three daughters equally (strictly speaking, it did not "pass"
but gave rise to a right to be quartered; accordingly, if their
respective husbands did not themselves bear arms, the Senior arms could
not be displayed). I know of no English grant of arms which specifies
that the arms may pass to the eldest daughter to the exclusion of any
younger: is this what the grant in question says?
I'm afraid I would need to look at CP myself in order to be able to
comment on the Abergavenny creations.

I've had a look at CP and there is no Charlotte (1736-1811), de jure
(that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier Baron(ess) in
the Peerage of England. The 16th baron of the second creation, was
William Neville who d. 1744 and was succeeded by the 17th baron who was
George nevill who became the first earl Abergavenny and died in 1785.
His son, the 18th baron and second earl, died in 1843. So I can't see
where Charlotte could possibly have fitted in. Further it seems
from the text that this barony descended by heirs male not heirs
general.
I totally support the comments about inheritance of quarterings, apart
from the fact than some early medieval quarterings were inherited by
wealth of the bride not by her being a genetic heiress.
--
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[Turenne]

Graham, how many quarters and charges are there in your arms now? You
added the Paulet's last week, it must be approaching quite a decent
total.

Richard Lichten

[Graham Milne]

Richard,

I am not actually affected by this. I am descended from Ascanius William
Senior's elder brother, Thomas. The arms granted to him were made
descendible to the heirs of his father. I cannot quarter the Neville arms
and I am not a co-heir to the barony created by writ in 1695. It is
possible, however, that the abeyance between his daughters has been
terminated by the extinction of the heirs of one of the them. I would like
to look into it if I have time.

I just find it quite interesting that Ascanius married a baroness. I wonder
if they knew about all this?

Graham

Post by Turenne
Graham, how many quarters and charges are there in your arms now? You
added the Paulet's last week, it must be approaching quite a decent
total.
Richard Lichten

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Graham Milne
Richard,
I am not actually affected by this. I am descended from Ascanius William
Senior's elder brother, Thomas. The arms granted to him were made
descendible to the heirs of his father.

Ah, I see; I had read your original post to the effect that you
descended from Ascanius's daughter by his first marriage, rather than
from his elder brother. Apologies.

Presumably then the grant to Ascanius was (technically) to his father -
then deceased? - thus allowing the brother and his descendants the
right to them as well. Such cases raise an interesting issue about
cadency: the petitioner in this case was not an eldest son, and thus
had he borne the cadency system in mind, his arms should have been
charged with a younger son's mark. His elder brother therefore would
not have "inherited" them on Ascanius's death, but would have been
entitled to them from the moment of their grant, and (assuming the
father was then dead) without any cadency mark whatsoever.

MA-R

PS I appreciate that English cadency marks are entirely voluntary in
nature.

[Graham Milne]

I have put an image of CP, Vol. 1, p.41 at:

Loading Image...

This shows Jane Nevill (d. 1786) as heir general of her father.

Post by m***@btinternet.com

Post by Graham Milne
Richard,
I am not actually affected by this. I am descended from Ascanius William
Senior's elder brother, Thomas. The arms granted to him were made
descendible to the heirs of his father.

Ah, I see; I had read your original post to the effect that you
descended from Ascanius's daughter by his first marriage, rather than
from his elder brother. Apologies.
Presumably then the grant to Ascanius was (technically) to his father -
then deceased? - thus allowing the brother and his descendants the
right to them as well. Such cases raise an interesting issue about
cadency: the petitioner in this case was not an eldest son, and thus
had he borne the cadency system in mind, his arms should have been
charged with a younger son's mark. His elder brother therefore would
not have "inherited" them on Ascanius's death, but would have been
entitled to them from the moment of their grant, and (assuming the
father was then dead) without any cadency mark whatsoever.
MA-R
PS I appreciate that English cadency marks are entirely voluntary in
nature.

[Patrick Cracroft-Brennan]

I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.

Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
7 Baronies of (A)bergavenny, all of which are baronies in fee:

England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000

I have amended the narrative genealogies in Cracroft's Peerage to
reflect this (I can make these available as downloadable .pdf files if
anyone is interested).

I am grateful to Mr Milne for the information about the Senior family.

Regards

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================




On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:39 -0000, "Graham Milne"

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm
'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.
The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.
Any comments?
Graham

[g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000
I have amended the narrative genealogies in Cracroft's Peerage to
reflect this (I can make these available as downloadable .pdf files if
anyone is interested).
I am grateful to Mr Milne for the information about the Senior family.
Regards
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:39 -0000, "Graham Milne"

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm
'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.
The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.
Any comments?
Graham- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick,

I am having a little difficulty working out how you arrived at your
list. I had already looked at my original posting and come to the
conclusion that there were 6, not 5, baronies as follows. I am not
claiming to be right but I cannot quite reconcile your list with mine.
Surely the 1450 barony was just the 1392 barony passing to the husband
of the heiress, Elizabeth Beauchamp, jure juxoris?

the first was created in 1392 by writ of summons to William Beauchamp
(d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the death of her father, Henry
Nevill, Lord Bergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to her heirs; the second
was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward Nevill (d. 1622) and
passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas Nevill (d. 1628), on
the death of Henry Nevill, Lord Bergavenny, in 1641 - and then to her
heirs; the third was created by writ of summons (the Complete Peerage,
Vol. I, p. 37, gives no date) to John Nevill (d. 1662) and seem to
have expired with him; the fourth was created (the Complete Peerage,
Vol. I, p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d.
1695) and seems to have expired with him; the fifth was created in
1695 by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to
Charlotte Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the
death of her brother, John Walter, de jure Baron of Bergavenny (5th
baron of the 5th creation), in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the sixth
was created in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and
is held by the present Marquess of Abergavenny.

This is what I have on my website at the moment but I shall be quite
happy to correct it. I spoke to Robert Noel, Lancaster Herald, and he
seemed to agree that these are baronies by writ (i.e. our general
approach is right)

Graham

[Patrick Cracroft-Brennan]

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000
I have amended the narrative genealogies in Cracroft's Peerage to
reflect this (I can make these available as downloadable .pdf files if
anyone is interested).
I am grateful to Mr Milne for the information about the Senior family.
Regards
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:39 -0000, "Graham Milne"

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm
'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.
The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.
Any comments?
Graham- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick,
I am having a little difficulty working out how you arrived at your
list. I had already looked at my original posting and come to the
conclusion that there were 6, not 5, baronies as follows. I am not
claiming to be right but I cannot quite reconcile your list with mine.
Surely the 1450 barony was just the 1392 barony passing to the husband
of the heiress, Elizabeth Beauchamp, jure juxoris?

The simple answer here is, in my view, "No".

Let me explain:

Lady Elizabeyj Beauchamp, suo jure Baroness Bergavenny of the 1392
creation, married Sir Edward Nevill sometime before 1426. She bore
him two sons and two daughters and died on 18 June 1447. Any
representation she had to the 1392 barony would have passed to her
only surviving son, George Nevill, who was born around 1440.

Her surviving husband married Katherine, sister of John Howard, 1st
Duke of Norfolk, and was summoned to Parliament by writ on 5 Sep 1450
as Baron Bergavenny. As his first wife was dead it could not be said
that he was summoned jure uxoris and so the Complete Peerage, quite
correctly in my view, comes to the conclusion that this was the
creation of a de novo barony in fee.

After Edward's death in 1476 both the 1392 and the 1450 Baronies of
Bergavenny followed the same line of descent until both fell into
abeyance in 1762 on the death of John Fane, 7th Earl of Westmorland.

As I said, i am quite happy to post the details of what I think are
the 7 Baronies of (A)bergavenny on my website to see if people agree
with my arguments.

Regards

Patrick

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

[g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On Feb 5, 10:31 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000
I have amended the narrative genealogies in Cracroft's Peerage to
reflect this (I can make these available as downloadable .pdf files if
anyone is interested).
I am grateful to Mr Milne for the information about the Senior family.
Regards
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:39 -0000, "Graham Milne"

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm
'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.
The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.
Any comments?
Graham- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick,
I am having a little difficulty working out how you arrived at your
list. I had already looked at my original posting and come to the
conclusion that there were 6, not 5, baronies as follows. I am not
claiming to be right but I cannot quite reconcile your list with mine.
Surely the 1450 barony was just the 1392 barony passing to the husband
of the heiress, Elizabeth Beauchamp, jure juxoris?

The simple answer here is, in my view, "No".
Lady Elizabeyj Beauchamp, suo jure Baroness Bergavenny of the 1392
creation, married Sir Edward Nevill sometime before 1426. She bore
him two sons and two daughters and died on 18 June 1447. Any
representation she had to the 1392 barony would have passed to her
only surviving son, George Nevill, who was born around 1440.
Her surviving husband married Katherine, sister of John Howard, 1st
Duke of Norfolk, and was summoned to Parliament by writ on 5 Sep 1450
as Baron Bergavenny. As his first wife was dead it could not be said
that he was summoned jure uxoris and so the Complete Peerage, quite
correctly in my view, comes to the conclusion that this was the
creation of a de novo barony in fee.
After Edward's death in 1476 both the 1392 and the 1450 Baronies of
Bergavenny followed the same line of descent until both fell into
abeyance in 1762 on the death of John Fane, 7th Earl of Westmorland.
As I said, i am quite happy to post the details of what I think are
the 7 Baronies of (A)bergavenny on my website to see if people agree
with my arguments.
Regards
Patrick
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Patrick,

Thank you for that. I see what you mean. I would be most interested to
see the details on your website.

Graham

[Patrick Cracroft-Brennan]

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Feb 5, 10:31 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000
I have amended the narrative genealogies in Cracroft's Peerage to
reflect this (I can make these available as downloadable .pdf files if
anyone is interested).
I am grateful to Mr Milne for the information about the Senior family.
Regards
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:39 -0000, "Graham Milne"

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm
'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.
The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.
Any comments?
Graham- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick,
I am having a little difficulty working out how you arrived at your
list. I had already looked at my original posting and come to the
conclusion that there were 6, not 5, baronies as follows. I am not
claiming to be right but I cannot quite reconcile your list with mine.
Surely the 1450 barony was just the 1392 barony passing to the husband
of the heiress, Elizabeth Beauchamp, jure juxoris?

The simple answer here is, in my view, "No".
Lady Elizabeyj Beauchamp, suo jure Baroness Bergavenny of the 1392
creation, married Sir Edward Nevill sometime before 1426. She bore
him two sons and two daughters and died on 18 June 1447. Any
representation she had to the 1392 barony would have passed to her
only surviving son, George Nevill, who was born around 1440.
Her surviving husband married Katherine, sister of John Howard, 1st
Duke of Norfolk, and was summoned to Parliament by writ on 5 Sep 1450
as Baron Bergavenny. As his first wife was dead it could not be said
that he was summoned jure uxoris and so the Complete Peerage, quite
correctly in my view, comes to the conclusion that this was the
creation of a de novo barony in fee.
After Edward's death in 1476 both the 1392 and the 1450 Baronies of
Bergavenny followed the same line of descent until both fell into
abeyance in 1762 on the death of John Fane, 7th Earl of Westmorland.
As I said, i am quite happy to post the details of what I think are
the 7 Baronies of (A)bergavenny on my website to see if people agree
with my arguments.
Regards
Patrick
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Patrick,
Thank you for that. I see what you mean. I would be most interested to
see the details on your website.
Graham

Graham

I will created each article as a .pdf file and let you know when they
are accessible.

Patrick

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

[Patrick Cracroft-Brennan]

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000

Graham

These can be accessed as follows:

http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1392.pdf
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1450.pdf
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1604.pdf
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1641.pdf
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1662.pdf
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1695.pdf
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1724.pdf

Regards

Patrick

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

[g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

Post by Graham Milne

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000

Graham
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1392.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1450.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1604.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1641.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1662.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1695.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1724.pdf
Regards
Patrick
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

Am I right in thinking that the present Marquis of Abergavenny has an
only daughter (as per Burke's Peerage)? If this is the
case then the question of whether the Barony of Abergavenny is a
barony by writ or not becomes important.
All the family's other titles are descendible to heirs male of the
body as far as I can see, so the daughter cannot inherit these.
But if the Barony of Abergavenny is a barony by writ of summons (1724)
then she would inherit that title (as her only title).
Any thoughts?

Graham

[Patrick Cracroft-Brennan]

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk

Post by Graham Milne

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000

Graham
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1392.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1450.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1604.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1641.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1662.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1695.pdfhttp://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1724.pdf
Regards
Patrick
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

Am I right in thinking that the present Marquis of Abergavenny has an
only daughter (as per Burke's Peerage)? If this is the
case then the question of whether the Barony of Abergavenny is a
barony by writ or not becomes important.
All the family's other titles are descendible to heirs male of the
body as far as I can see, so the daughter cannot inherit these.
But if the Barony of Abergavenny is a barony by writ of summons (1724)
then she would inherit that title (as her only title).
Any thoughts?

The 1724 Barony of Abergavenny fell into abeyancy in 2000 between the
three daughters of the 5th Marquess of Abergavenny.

Patrick

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

[g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On Mar 21, 9:45 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk

Post by Graham Milne

Post by g***@gmilne.demon.co.uk
On Jan 31, 11:42 pm, Patrick Cracroft-Brennan

Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
I have long been aware of the many anomolies of the descent of the
Barony of (A)bergavenny.
Looking carefully through the various reference books I actually make
England 1392 - abeyant 1762
England 1450 - abeyant 1762
England 1604 - dormant 1641
England after 1641 - extinct 1662
England after 1662 - abeyant 1833
England 1695 - abeyant 1811
GB 1724 - abeyant 2000

Graham
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/abergavenny1392.pdfhttp://www.cracr...
Regards
Patrick
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================

Am I right in thinking that the present Marquis of Abergavenny has an
only daughter (as per Burke's Peerage)? If this is the
case then the question of whether the Barony of Abergavenny is a
barony by writ or not becomes important.
All the family's other titles are descendible to heirs male of the
body as far as I can see, so the daughter cannot inherit these.
But if the Barony of Abergavenny is a barony by writ of summons (1724)
then she would inherit that title (as her only title).
Any thoughts?

The 1724 Barony of Abergavenny fell into abeyancy in 2000 between the
three daughters of the 5th Marquess of Abergavenny.
Patrick
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetagewww.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Thank you for that update.

Graham

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Graham Milne
Hi all,
My mother is the heraldic heiress of Ascanius William Senior (d. 1789),
which means that I am entitled to quarter the arms granted to him in 1767. I
have just discovered that Ascanius' wife, Charlotte, was the de jure 16th
Baroness of Abergavenny. Having looked at the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under
'Abergavenny') I have come to the conclusion that FIVE Baronies of
http://www.gmilne.demon.co.uk/tree.htm
'Arms granted on 26th March 1767 to his great-great-uncle, Ascanius William
Senior (1728-89), of Pierrepont Lodge, Frensham, Surrey (1771-80), Pylewell
House, Lymington, Hants (1780-87) and later of Canon Hill House, Bray, Berks
(1787-89), brother of Nassau Thomas Senior (see below). Ascanius served in
the HEICS 1753-66, in the Militia at the siege of Fort William, Calcutta
1756, which led to the 'Black Hole of Calcutta', and was Chief of
Cossimbazar, principal port of West Bengal, 1765-66 and High Sheriff of
Hampshire 1777-78. He m, firstly in 1762, Helen (bapt. 24 Jun 1733),
daughter of John Jekyll of St. Andrew's, Holborn, of the same family as
Gertrude Jekyll (1843-1932), the noted gardener, by whom he had one
daughter, Helen (b 18 Oct 1763 d 3 Mar 1837), who m John Anstey (d 25 Nov
1819), barrister, and had issue, and, secondly 5 May 1768, Charlotte
(1736-1811), de jure (that is legally) 16th Baroness Abergavenny and premier
Baron(ess) in the Peerage of England, daughter of (John) Abel Walter (d
1767) and Jane Nevill (d. 1786), who was de jure 14th Baroness Abergavenny
from the death of her sister Anne in 1736/7, daughter and eventual heir
general of George Nevill (d 1720/1), 11th Lord Abergavenny (see Burke's
Peerage under 'ABERGAVENNY, Marquis of'), by whom he left two daughters,
Nevillia (b 25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842), who m 4 Jan 1792 William Thomas (b
25 Jan 1769 d 17 Dec 1842) of Brockhill House, Winkfield, Berks, and had
issue, and Charlotte Maria (b 1773), who m 19 Aug 1790 Francis Fuller of
Salisbury, Wilts, and had issue. Ascanius and Charlotte had no surviving
male issue so the arms of Senior passed to the senior (i.e. my mother's
branch) branch of the family in accordance with the terms of the original
grant. On the death of Charlotte Senior in 1811 the Barony of Abergavenny
(being that created by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) in
1695 - see Complete Peerage, Vol. I, p. 40-41) fell into abeyance between
her two daughters, Nevillia and Charlotte Maria and so continues amongst
their descendants. On the death of Jane Nevill's brother, Edward Nevill,
13th Lord Abergavenny, in 1724, his cousin, William Nevill (d. 1744), was
summoned to Parliament as Lord Abergavenny, even though he was not the legal
heir to the barony, not being the heir general.
The Barony of Abergavenny is currently held by Christopher Nevill (b. 1955),
6th Marquess of Abergavenny, but this barony cannot be that created in 1695,
as mentioned above, so it is a new creation of 1724. There are, in fact,
five baronies of Abergavenny; the first was created in 1392 by writ of
summons to William Beauchamp (d. 1411) and passed to Mary Nevill on the
death of her father, Henry Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1586/7 - and then to
her heirs; the second was created in 1604 by writ of summons to Edward
Nevill (d. 1622) and passed to Margaret Nevill, daughter of Sir Thomas
Nevill (d. 1628), on the death of John Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, in 1662 -
and then to her heirs; the third was created (the Complete Peerage, Vol. I,
p. 38, gives no date) by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1695) and
passed to Frances Shelly (d. 1777) on the death of George Nevill, Lord
Abergavenny, in 1695 - and then to her heirs; the fourth was created in 1695
by writ of summons to George Nevill (d. 1720/1) and passed to Charlotte
Walter (d. 1811), wife of Ascanius William Senior, on the death of her
brother, John Walter, in 1806 - and then to her heirs; the fifth was created
in 1724 by writ of summons to William Nevill (d. 1744) and passed to the
present Marquess of Abergavenny. In short, the Barony of Abergavenny, which
is unquestionably (in each case) a barony by writ descendible to heirs
general has been treated, on four separate occasions, as a barony
descendible to heirs male only. In accordance with established peerage law,
a new barony by writ was created each time that a writ of summons was issued
incorrectly to an heir male, but this does not affect the legal descent of a
pre-existing barony by writ via the heir general. The key point here is that
neither the Crown, nor Parliament (except by passing a law to that effect),
nor the Courts (up to and including the House of Lords) have any legal right
to alter the descent of a barony by writ; thus the resolution of the House
of Lords in 1604 (which attempted to alter the succession of the barony in
favour of the heir male) was null and void, though the subsequent writ of
summons to Edward Nevill was valid and created a new barony by writ - as
stated. See the Complete Peerage (Vol. I under 'Abergavenny') for more
information. Note that Vol. I, p. 34 states of the 1604 case 'Mary [...] was
unquestionably entitled to any Barony in fee possessed by her late father.'
and 'Whether or no her claim, and that of her representatives thereto, is
legally barred by this, or any other subsequent proceedings of the Crown and
the House of Lords, as to such Barony is open to grave doubt.' In other
words the Complete Peerage is effectively saying that the heir general of
the first barony by writ is still entitled to claim the barony, regardless
of the House of Lords ruling on the matter; the same applies to the heirs
general of the second, third and fourth baronies.
Any comments?
Graham

Graham,
The barony of Abergavenny has led a confused life due to the castle and lands of Abergavenny passing to the heirs male and the understanding that it was a barony by tenure could only be confirmed by the King who left it to the House of Lords. Thus it was never satisfactorily decide whether it was a barony by tenure or not. As it probably was a barony by tenure it should pass through the male Nevill heirs which the Nevills have maintained as their right, despite the fact that the barony is currently in abeyance. This is only a comment and i daresay i am wrong somewhere.
best wishes
Don