Changing attitudes

[Richard Smith]

I'm trying to piece together several branches of the Rogers family of
Bradford on Avon, Wilts in the 15th and 16th century. All have the same
basic arms: /argent, a chevron between three stags sable/. Occasionally
there are cadency marks (a crescent at Deritend, Warks; a crescent on a
crescent at Sutton Valence, Kent; a mullet at Lopit, Devon); but
additionally, the stags' attitude varies. Sometimes they're described
as courant, sometimes trippant, sometimes statant, and sometimes their
attitude is left unspecified.

In the 15th and 16th centuries, are these differences likely to be of
significance? For example, should I be assuming the courant stags are a
different branch of the family to the trippant ones? Or is it more
likely that they were varied on a whim, and only became fixed in
subsequent centuries?

Richard

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Richard Smith
I'm trying to piece together several branches of the Rogers family of
Bradford on Avon, Wilts in the 15th and 16th century. All have the
same basic arms: /argent, a chevron between three stags sable/.
Occasionally there are cadency marks (a crescent at Deritend, Warks; a
crescent on a crescent at Sutton Valence, Kent; a mullet at Lopit,
Devon); but additionally, the stags' attitude varies. Sometimes
they're described as courant, sometimes trippant, sometimes statant,
and sometimes their attitude is left unspecified.
In the 15th and 16th centuries, are these differences likely to be of
significance? For example, should I be assuming the courant stags are
a different branch of the family to the trippant ones? Or is it more
likely that they were varied on a whim, and only became fixed in
subsequent centuries?

Let's start the debate off from my corner of relative ignorance compared
to the odd Real Scholar who drops in occasionally.

At least Rogers appears in VOLUME TWO of the Dictionary of British Arms,
Medieval Ordinary, p. 294, but only one occurrence: Arg chev betw 3
roebucks courant Sa attrd Or. (WB[=Writhe's Book] 42, 12)

The differences between the arms that you have found may be merely
artistic licence for a core very simple blazon. Or it could be, as some
families do, a strict concern for heraldic differences for relations or
cadets. Or, they may merely be copied badly from one bunch of Rogers to
another.

My answer would be to try to find charters, etc to show the relationship
between the various families. Then the heraldry can be made more sense
of. Finding good documentation is a hard task but you might strike
lucky with a search on The National Archives, whose catalogue includes
many of the County Record offices catalogues. There is in fact quite a
lot of material available for landed families. It is hard work and I
will freely confess that I don't have adequate skills to do this
properly.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Richard Smith
I'm trying to piece together several branches of the Rogers family
of Bradford on Avon, Wilts in the 15th and 16th century. All have
the same basic arms: /argent, a chevron between three stags
sable/. Occasionally there are cadency marks (a crescent at
Deritend, Warks; a crescent on a crescent at Sutton Valence, Kent;
a mullet at Lopit, Devon); but additionally, the stags' attitude
varies. Sometimes they're described as courant, sometimes
trippant, sometimes statant, and sometimes their attitude is left
unspecified.
In the 15th and 16th centuries, are these differences likely to be
of significance? For example, should I be assuming the courant
stags are a different branch of the family to the trippant ones?
Or is it more likely that they were varied on a whim, and only
became fixed in subsequent centuries?

Let's start the debate off from my corner of relative ignorance
compared to the odd Real Scholar who drops in occasionally.
At least Rogers appears in VOLUME TWO of the Dictionary of British
Arms, Medieval Ordinary, p. 294, but only one occurrence: Arg chev
betw 3 roebucks courant Sa attrd Or. (WB[=Writhe's Book] 42, 12)

Thanks. I don't have ready access to that, and tend to rely on the much
older Papworth's Ordinary. If it's attested by Writhe, it must be 15th
century. Is there any indication of the person who held it, or the part
of the country?

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
My answer would be to try to find charters, etc to show the
relationship between the various families.

Unfortunately Rogers is a pretty common surname, and a very high
proportion of the men were called John (including sometimes two
surviving brothers), so the charters, etc. aren't always as helpful as
they might be. I was hoping I might be able to use the heraldry as an
additional clue to untangle it. At least the mullet and crescent
cadency marks have been of help.


Richard

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Richard Smith
I'm trying to piece together several branches of the Rogers family
of Bradford on Avon, Wilts in the 15th and 16th century. All have
the same basic arms: /argent, a chevron between three stags
sable/. Occasionally there are cadency marks (a crescent at
Deritend, Warks; a crescent on a crescent at Sutton Valence, Kent;
a mullet at Lopit, Devon); but additionally, the stags' attitude
varies. Sometimes they're described as courant, sometimes
trippant, sometimes statant, and sometimes their attitude is left
unspecified.
In the 15th and 16th centuries, are these differences likely to be
of significance? For example, should I be assuming the courant
stags are a different branch of the family to the trippant ones?
Or is it more likely that they were varied on a whim, and only
became fixed in subsequent centuries?

Let's start the debate off from my corner of relative ignorance
compared to the odd Real Scholar who drops in occasionally.
At least Rogers appears in VOLUME TWO of the Dictionary of British
Arms, Medieval Ordinary, p. 294, but only one occurrence: Arg chev
betw 3 roebucks courant Sa attrd Or. (WB[=Writhe's Book] 42, 12)

Thanks. I don't have ready access to that, and tend to rely on the
much older Papworth's Ordinary.

Older and less well authenticated. I gathered once that Papworth
started with Burke's none-too-reliable volumes. Probably Lt-Col Croft
Lyons was well aware of those problems with Papworth which is why he
originally endowed the Dictionary of British Arms project in 1926. Save
your pennies one by one for this lovely set of volumes? Can any human's
library be complete without them?

Post by Richard Smith
If it's attested by Writhe, it must be 15th century. Is there any
indication of the person who held it, or the part of the country?

No. And the problem with Writhe's Book(s) is that I have yet to find a
copy or transcription anywhere. I got the impression from my last
search that only the manuscript had survived and that was only in the
College of Arms.

Post by Richard Smith

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
My answer would be to try to find charters, etc to show the
relationship between the various families.

Unfortunately Rogers is a pretty common surname, and a very high
proportion of the men were called John (including sometimes two
surviving brothers), so the charters, etc. aren't always as helpful as
they might be.

Yes. Lybbe (plus variants) is a good surname for searching!

Post by Richard Smith
I was hoping I might be able to use the heraldry as an additional clue
to untangle it. At least the mullet and crescent cadency marks have
been of help.

Agreed.

[Richard Smith]

I gathered once that Papworth started with Burke's none-too-reliable
volumes. Probably Lt-Col Croft Lyons was well aware of those
problems with Papworth which is why he originally endowed the
Dictionary of British Arms project in 1926. Save your pennies one by
one for this lovely set of volumes? Can any human's library be
complete without them?

Can any human's library ever be complete at all? Anyway, I probably
shall save up for them, especially as I've just found the set for £250
on Amazon -- considerably less than when I last looked.


Richard