Discussion:
The National Arms of the French Republic
(too old to reply)
o***@gmail.com
2013-09-04 15:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Just wondering if anyone with a bit more knowledge than me in this area can shed some light on this for me:

Although France had national Arms during its monarchical eras (both as a Kingdom and an Empire), as a Republic , both the 1792-1804 and 1848-1852 Republics never adopted national Arms and, whilst the present Constitution of France only specifys the National Flag to be a national emblem, and makes no reference to any national Arms nor any non-heraldry emblem, nonetheless in 1905 Arms were devised for France for a State visit of King Alfonso XIIII of Spain. These Arms featured a fasces Or surrounded by a wreath, also Or, on an Azure field. These were used more or less consistently until the Second World War. In 1953 another depiction was designed for use in the UN buildings alongside the Coats of Arms of other UN members. Very loosely described as a Coat of Arms (it features the golden letters R and F conjoined on a highly stylised shield, with an Or field. (yes, I know what you are thinking).
This achievement is presently used on French passports.

Every reference I have found about both the 1905 Arms and the 1953 Arms refers to them both as the 'Arms of France', or the 1905 Arms are described so, or the 1953 Arms. Which is confusing.I believe the 1905 Arms are still also used in some official capacity (but I can't for the life of me remember what). So which are actually the National Arms of France? The 1953 Arms? The 1905 ones? Both? Neither (as neither has been officially adopted)? All very confusing and I would appreciate any information as regards it.
Derek Howard
2013-09-04 19:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Although France had national Arms during its monarchical eras (both as a Kingdom and an Empire), as a Republic , both the 1792-1804 and 1848-1852 Republics never adopted national Arms and, whilst the present Constitution of France only specifys the National Flag to be a national emblem, and makes no reference to any national Arms nor any non-heraldry emblem, nonetheless in 1905 Arms were devised for France for a State visit of King Alfonso XIIII of Spain. These Arms featured a fasces Or surrounded by a wreath, also Or, on an Azure field. These were used more or less consistently until the Second World War. In 1953 another depiction was designed for use in the UN buildings alongside the Coats of Arms of other UN members. Very loosely described as a Coat of Arms (it features the golden letters R and F conjoined on a highly stylised shield, with an Or field. (yes, I know what you are thinking).
This achievement is presently used on French passports.
Every reference I have found about both the 1905 Arms and the 1953 Arms refers to them both as the 'Arms of France', or the 1905 Arms are described so, or the 1953 Arms. Which is confusing.I believe the 1905 Arms are still also used in some official capacity (but I can't for the life of me remember what). So which are actually the National Arms of France? The 1953 Arms? The 1905 ones? Both? Neither (as neither has been officially adopted)? All very confusing and I would appreciate any information as regards it.
An outline explanation of the national arms and/or emblems is on the French Wiki (translatable with Google Chrome if necessary), at:
<http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoiries_de_la_France>,
though this differs a little over the date of adoption of the fasces, said to be 1913 on the Foreign Ministry website at:
<http://www.elysee.fr/la-presidence/le-faisceau-de-licteur/>,
which explains that it was adopted from the design on sword hilts and livery buttons.

What I had not realised is that the UN secretariat had assembled the official national arms of countries in 1953. I wonder whether they were termed arms or emblems at that time. UN recognition of heraldry would be an interesting precedent.

Derek Howard
o***@gmail.com
2013-09-04 21:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks for that Derek.

Still doesn't quite answer which Arms are the Arms of France.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2013-09-05 01:28:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Many thanks for that Derek.
Still doesn't quite answer which Arms are the Arms of France.
And "Nature abhors a vacuum"?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ***@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
o***@gmail.com
2013-09-05 03:47:45 UTC
Permalink
As in, the French wikipedia article doesn't say which Arms are the Arms of France either.
Le Forgeron
2013-09-07 09:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Many thanks for that Derek.
Still doesn't quite answer which Arms are the Arms of France.
From "Les emblèmes de la France" (Michel Pastoureau, 1998), the answer
is None. (more details at page 35)

The Arms of France were cancelled by the revolution of 1790 (dropping
both nobility and arms, despite being unrelated). (previously the arms
of France were Azure three fleurs-de-lys Or, from the king since 1376).

There was (at the time of writing in 1998), three more or less
not-appropriate ways to display some kind of things for the arms of France:
1. a R.F. Mono-gramme
2. a map of France
3. the tricolour flag (Blue,White,Red) used as a shield.

The author called for an official design, but that seems to have never
been done.

In 1892, Arthur Maury suggested :
d'Azur un beau coq d'Or, crété et barbé de Gueules, becqué et membré
d'Argent, les ailes soulevées au moment où il lance son fier "cocorico".

It was not followed.

Loading...