Query re DBA? - Pauncefote

[Peter Howarth]

My four volumes of the Dictionary of British Arms hold pride of place on my bookshelves. They are in arm's reach of my desk and I am constantly grateful for the information they contain. The work is based on some 114,000 hand-written index cards produced by over 70 individuals who volunteered to help. It would be a miracle if no mistakes had crept in anywhere.

In Volume One, page 279, under the sub-heading 'Per fess in chief 3 lions' there is the following entry:

PAUNCEFOTE, Sir Grimbald. Lawrance 35. (effigies of Sir G, d1292, Crickhowell, Breck & his s Sir G, d1314, Much Cowarne, Herefs).

Lawrance 35 refers to Lawrance, Rev. Henry, 'Heraldry from Military Monuments before 1350 in England and Wales', London: The Harleian Society 98, 1946, page 35.

But what Lawrance actually writes on page 35 is:

PAUNCEFOTE. Crickhowell (Breck.) and Much Cawarne (Heref.). Three lions rampant (sh.). Sire Gilberd Pauncevod: de goules a iij liocels de argent (Parl. R.). Sir Grimbald Pauncefote d. 1292 holding Crickhowell: his son and heir, Sir Grimbald Pauncefote, d. 1314 holding two thirds of Much Cawarne, etc. He was succeeded by his brother, Sir Almeric Pauncefote of Crickhowell, who d. 1322. Hist. Mon. Com. Heref.

So Lawrance says that the shield on the effigies has 'three lions rampant' but DBA, citing Lawrance, has put it under 'per fess in chief 3 lions'.

M P Siddons, 'Welsh Heraldry' (1991) i. p 267 refers to the Pauncefote arms in the Heralds' Roll, on the tomb in Crickhowell Church, and on fourteenth-century seals. The seal for Sir Grimbald the Younger is dated 1312/13, Hereford Cathedral Library Deeds A 290 (p 278 note 103). The Heralds' Roll (c.1279) HE 177 has 'gules, three lions rampant argent'; so do Dering Roll (c.1280) A 231, St George's Roll (c.1285) E 299, Charles's Roll (c.1285) F 186, and Parliamentary Roll (c.1312) N 878.

Might DBA have made a mistake?

Peter Howarth

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Peter Howarth
My four volumes of the Dictionary of British Arms hold pride of place
on my bookshelves. They are in arm's reach of my desk and I am
constantly grateful for the information they contain. The work is
based on some 114,000 hand-written index cards produced by over 70
individuals who volunteered to help. It would be a miracle if no
mistakes had crept in anywhere.

Thoroughly agree with all of that, though my four volumes require me to
stand up and walk a couple of feet.

Post by Peter Howarth
In Volume One, page 279, under the sub-heading 'Per fess in chief 3
PAUNCEFOTE, Sir Grimbald. Lawrance 35. (effigies of Sir G, d1292,
Crickhowell, Breck & his s Sir G, d1314, Much Cowarne, Herefs).
Lawrance 35 refers to Lawrance, Rev. Henry, 'Heraldry from Military
Monuments before 1350 in England and Wales', London: The Harleian
Society 98, 1946, page 35.
PAUNCEFOTE. Crickhowell (Breck.) and Much Cawarne (Heref.). Three
lions rampant (sh.). Sire Gilberd Pauncevod: de goules a iij liocels
de argent (Parl. R.). Sir Grimbald Pauncefote d. 1292 holding
Crickhowell: his son and heir, Sir Grimbald Pauncefote, d. 1314
holding two thirds of Much Cawarne, etc. He was succeeded by his
brother, Sir Almeric Pauncefote of Crickhowell, who d. 1322. Hist.
Mon. Com. Heref.
So Lawrance says that the shield on the effigies has 'three lions
rampant' but DBA, citing Lawrance, has put it under 'per fess in chief
3 lions'.
M P Siddons, 'Welsh Heraldry' (1991) i. p 267 refers to the Pauncefote
arms in the Heralds' Roll, on the tomb in Crickhowell Church, and on
fourteenth-century seals. The seal for Sir Grimbald the Younger is
dated 1312/13, Hereford Cathedral Library Deeds A 290 (p 278 note
103). The Heralds' Roll (c.1279) HE 177 has 'gules, three lions
rampant argent'; so do Dering Roll (c.1280) A 231, St George's Roll
(c.1285) E 299, Charles's Roll (c.1285) F 186, and Parliamentary Roll
(c.1312) N 878.

A masterpiece of mature research, many thanks.

Post by Peter Howarth
Might DBA have made a mistake?

Of course it might.

A similar fate befell Complete Peerage which is of similar value and
high scholarship. In particular the early volumes of the 14 suffered
the greatest number of corrections, and I note that this error is in
Volume One of the Dictionary series.

Some 40 years after the last volume of CP was published, we were
delighted to see a fifteenth volume (XIV of course) of Corrigenda and
Addenda. Even this was not enough and Chris Phillips kindly set up and
edited a web-site of Further Corrections and Additions to CP:
<http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/>.

We have waited, though I was not alive at the inception of the great
Dictionary of British Arms Medieval Ordinary project, perhaps 87 years
for its completion. On the scale of Complete Peerage's timetable, it
could be at least another 50 years before the Corrigenda et Addenda
volume is delivered.

In the meantime, what is needed is a clearing house for corrections, and
into which the above should be an early contribution. I wonder what the
Society of Antiquaries is thinking?

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Peter Howarth
My four volumes of the Dictionary of British Arms hold pride of place
on my bookshelves. They are in arm's reach of my desk and I am
constantly grateful for the information they contain. The work is
based on some 114,000 hand-written index cards produced by over 70
individuals who volunteered to help. It would be a miracle if no
mistakes had crept in anywhere.

Thoroughly agree with all of that, though my four volumes require me to
stand up and walk a couple of feet.

Post by Peter Howarth
In Volume One, page 279, under the sub-heading 'Per fess in chief 3
PAUNCEFOTE, Sir Grimbald. Lawrance 35. (effigies of Sir G, d1292,
Crickhowell, Breck & his s Sir G, d1314, Much Cowarne, Herefs).
Lawrance 35 refers to Lawrance, Rev. Henry, 'Heraldry from Military
Monuments before 1350 in England and Wales', London: The Harleian
Society 98, 1946, page 35.
PAUNCEFOTE. Crickhowell (Breck.) and Much Cawarne (Heref.). Three
lions rampant (sh.). Sire Gilberd Pauncevod: de goules a iij liocels
de argent (Parl. R.). Sir Grimbald Pauncefote d. 1292 holding
Crickhowell: his son and heir, Sir Grimbald Pauncefote, d. 1314
holding two thirds of Much Cawarne, etc. He was succeeded by his
brother, Sir Almeric Pauncefote of Crickhowell, who d. 1322. Hist.
Mon. Com. Heref.
So Lawrance says that the shield on the effigies has 'three lions
rampant' but DBA, citing Lawrance, has put it under 'per fess in chief
3 lions'.
M P Siddons, 'Welsh Heraldry' (1991) i. p 267 refers to the Pauncefote
arms in the Heralds' Roll, on the tomb in Crickhowell Church, and on
fourteenth-century seals. The seal for Sir Grimbald the Younger is
dated 1312/13, Hereford Cathedral Library Deeds A 290 (p 278 note
103). The Heralds' Roll (c.1279) HE 177 has 'gules, three lions
rampant argent'; so do Dering Roll (c.1280) A 231, St George's Roll
(c.1285) E 299, Charles's Roll (c.1285) F 186, and Parliamentary Roll
(c.1312) N 878.

A masterpiece of mature research, many thanks.

Post by Peter Howarth
Might DBA have made a mistake?

Of course it might.
A similar fate befell Complete Peerage which is of similar value and
high scholarship. In particular the early volumes of the 14 suffered
the greatest number of corrections, and I note that this error is in
Volume One of the Dictionary series.
Some 40 years after the last volume of CP was published, we were
delighted to see a fifteenth volume (XIV of course) of Corrigenda and
Addenda. Even this was not enough and Chris Phillips kindly set up and
<http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/>.
We have waited, though I was not alive at the inception of the great
Dictionary of British Arms Medieval Ordinary project, perhaps 87 years
for its completion. On the scale of Complete Peerage's timetable, it
could be at least another 50 years before the Corrigenda et Addenda
volume is delivered.
In the meantime, what is needed is a clearing house for corrections, and
into which the above should be an early contribution. I wonder what the
Society of Antiquaries is thinking?
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Many thanks for your response. I too had thought of the Complete Peerage and Chris Philips' marvellous website.

There is however one big difference between the Complete Peerage and the Dictionary of British Arms. CP looks at sources, assesses their value and then uses them to reach conclusions. DBA merely copies what the sources say and allows us to decide for ourselves whether the source was right or not. The Lord Marshal's Roll, for example, is notorious for getting tinctures wrong and for omitting charges. DBA's job is to copy all the entries in the roll as they stand, warts and all.

Therefore the only corrections to the DBA would be where it has not copied exactly what the source says. Even if Lawrance misread the arms on a tomb, it should copy what he wrote. Thinking about it now, it was misleading for me to go on and mention Siddons and the other rolls of arms. I wanted to show that Lawrance had reported correctly about the tombs for the two Sir Grimbald Pauncefotes, but I shouldn't have done it. Whether a source is right or wrong is irrelevant for the DBA, it's whether it's been copied correctly that is important.

My guess is that any collection of corrections could be published as a slim pamphlet, even though each entry would have to be entered both in the Ordinary and in the index of names. But what I would dearly love to have before that is a single combined index of names, instead of having to look them up, with all their different versions, in each of the four volumes.

Peter Howarth