1872 Appointment of Antoni Fialkowski

[for Nicolai]

If his date of appointment to Archbishop is correct,
then this eyewitness account "should???" be very important!

Page 757
published 1872

http://books.google.com/books?id=JaDNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA757&dq=fialkowski+Maltese&hl=en&ei=ficHTOmoFoPWNf67_Co&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=fialkowski%20Maltese&f=false

Quote
"""
3. L'avvenimento più recente e più importante per noi cattolici è la
solenne installazione del nuovo Metropolita di tutte le Chiese
cattoliche romane dell' Impero Russo, S. E. Revma Mgr A. Fialkowski,
Arcivescovo di Mohilew. La solenne funzione ebbe luogo nella Chiesa
cattolica romana maltese di S. Giovanni di Gerusalemme, la quale
trovasi entro il grandioso rdilizio del corpo de'Paggi Imperiali. Uno
dei quattro Vescovi, qui presenti,

.....con tutti gli ecclesiastici della Chiesa maltese,..........

salutava il Metropolita e gli fece una specie di relazione delle
condizioni presenti della Chiesa cattolica in Russia. 1 vostri lettori
saranno però non poco sorpresi d' udire, che tale atto venne
effettuato non in lingua russa, ma sibbene in lingua francese."""

[Turenne]

Post by for Nicolai
If his date of appointment to Archbishop is correct,
then this eyewitness account "should???" be very important!
Page 757
published 1872
http://books.google.com/books?id=JaDNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA757&dq=fialkowski+...
Quote
"""
3. L'avvenimento più recente e più importante per noi cattolici è la
solenne installazione del nuovo Metropolita di tutte le Chiese
cattoliche romane dell' Impero Russo, S. E. Revma Mgr A. Fialkowski,
Arcivescovo di Mohilew. La solenne funzione ebbe luogo nella Chiesa
cattolica romana maltese di S. Giovanni di Gerusalemme, la quale
trovasi entro il grandioso rdilizio del corpo de'Paggi Imperiali. Uno
dei quattro Vescovi, qui presenti,
.....con tutti gli ecclesiastici della Chiesa maltese,..........
salutava il Metropolita e gli fece una specie di relazione delle
condizioni presenti della Chiesa cattolica in Russia. 1 vostri lettori
saranno però non poco sorpresi d' udire, che tale atto venne
effettuato non in lingua russa, ma sibbene in lingua francese."""

A friend was kind enough to send me the following:

Russia.

20. Mohilew.

1872, 23.II. tr. de Caminieck, Anton. Fialkowski, +11.II.1883

Joseph. Staniewski, Suffragan., +XII.1871

Georg. Jvaschkewicz, Suffragan., +9.I.1876

1883, 15.III. Alex. Casimir. de Dziewaltowo Gintowt.

SOURCE
Gams, Pius Bonifacius
Series Episcoporum Ecclesiae Catholicae, qua series quae apparuit 1873
completur ab anno ca. 1870 ad 20. Febr. 1885
Ratisbona 1886
p. 84

Richard L

[for Nicolai]

Thank you Richard and your "Friend"
so the date is correct.......what's your or his opinion of the
account!

Thank you!
;)

[Turenne]

Post by for Nicolai
Thank you Richard and your "Friend"
so the date is correct.......what's your or his opinion of the
account!

Hello Nicolai. Sorry, I don't have an opinion, - actually, to be
frank, I don't understand what it's all about :(

Here's the translation; am I missing something?

The newest and most important for us Catholics is the solemn
installation of the new Metropolitan of all the Roman Catholic Church
of 'Russian Empire, HE Mgr A. Revma Fialkowski, Archbishop of Mohilew.
The solemn function was held in the Roman Catholic Church of St.
Maltese John of Jerusalem, which is found within the great body
rdilizio de'Paggi Imperial. One of the four bishops present here .....
all the clergy of the Church Maltese ,.......... Metropolitan waved
and gave him a kind of report of present condition of the Catholic
Church in Russia. Your readers will, however, not a little surprised
's hearing, that the act was not performed in Russian, but but rather
in French.'''

Richard

[for Nicolai]

Hi Richard,
I should write what I am thinking
:)
....................................................................................

I was told that the Maltese Order DID NOT EXIST at this time,
................
based on this eyewitness account, they all were present!

Yes ???
..............................................................................
What are they doing there, if they don't exist?

:)

[for Nicolai]

Maybe this will help???

3. The event more recent and more important for us Catholics is the
solemn installation of the new Metropolitan of all the Roman Catholic
Churches of the Russian Empire, S. E. Revma Mgr. A. Fialkowski,
Archbishop of Mohilew.
The solemn function took place in the Maltese Roman Catholic Church of
St. John of Jerusalem, which thereby is placed within the grandiose
building of the body of the Imperial Corps des Pages.

One of the four Bishops present here,
..... with all of the ecclesiastical clergy(body) of the Maltese
Church,..........

(at the???) metropolitan and made a sort of report of present
conditions of the Catholic Church in Russia. (...???) your readers
will but not a little surprised of hearing, that this act was not made
in Russian language, but but in the French language.
...............................................................................

or maybe somebody else can read this better!

[Joseph McMillan]

Post by for Nicolai
Maybe this will help???
3. The event more recent and more important for us Catholics is the
solemn installation of the new Metropolitan of all the Roman Catholic
Churches of the Russian Empire, S. E. Revma Mgr. A. Fialkowski,
Archbishop of Mohilew.
The solemn function took place in the Maltese Roman Catholic Church of
St. John of Jerusalem, which thereby is placed within the grandiose
building of the body of the Imperial Corps des Pages.
One of the four Bishops present here,
..... with all of the ecclesiastical clergy(body) of the Maltese
Church,..........
 (at the???) metropolitan and made a sort of report of present
conditions of the Catholic Church in Russia. (...???) your readers
will but not a little surprised of hearing, that this act was not made
in Russian language, but but in the French language.
...........................................................................­....
or maybe somebody else can read this better!

I'm not sure of the point of this, but if it is to show that the
Knights of Malta were active in Russia in 1872, I don't think it
does. "Tutti gli ecclesiastici della Chiesa maltese" would mean "all
the clergy of the Maltese Church," not all the clergy (or members) of
the Order of St. John. The Chiesa maltese refers to the Maltese
Chapel on Sadovaya. It was built for the knights of the order around
1800 or so, but was turned over to the Corps of Pages in 1810, at the
same time the order's financial assets were transferred to the
imperial treasury. By 1872, the name "Maltese" was simply a reference
to the building's history, as it remains today.

Joseph McMillan

[for Nicolai]

Post by for Nicolai
If his date of appointment to Archbishop is correct,
then this eyewitness account

"should???"

be very important!
.........................................................................................................
Part of my brain, thinks the same....but...the other part is asking
why in 1876 would they call a cathedral canon at the same church,
a "Member of the Order"

:)
You can call this an "internal and external conflict"
;)

[for Nicolai]

And PLEASE remember that I am only QUOTING text from this time period,
I don't make this up!
;)

[Turenne]

Post by for Nicolai
And PLEASE remember that I am only QUOTING text from this time period,
I don't make this up!
;)

I must say, I like Joseph's explanation. I think that 'Maltese' was a
nickname based on the church's history.

Richard

[Joseph McMillan]

Post by Turenne

Post by for Nicolai
And PLEASE remember that I am only QUOTING text from this time period,
I don't make this up!
;)

I must say, I like Joseph's explanation. I think that 'Maltese' was a
nickname based on the church's history.

Not a hypothesis: the Catholic church that was to be found "within
the great building of the Imperial Corps of Pages" (entro il grandioso
edifizio [not rlizio] del corpo de' Paggi Imperiali) is still called
the Maltese Chapel (Мальтийская капелла), and surely there are no
Knights of St. John resident there today. This is not unusual; there
are lots of similarly named places where "Maltese" is a historical
reference, like Maltézské náměstí (Maltese Square) in Prague. See
http://www.encspb.ru/en/article.php?kod=2804010178.

[Joseph McMillan]

...........................................................................­..............................
Part of my brain, thinks the same....but...the other part is asking
why in 1876 would they call a cathedral canon at the same church,
a "Member of the Order"

Where does it say that?

[for Nicolai]

Post by Joseph McMillan

Post by for Nicolai
why in 1876 would they call a cathedral canon at the same church,
a "Member of the Order"

Where does it say that?

.......................................
Page 293
Year 1876

http://books.google.com/books?id=c6AtAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA306&dq=%22Canonicus+St.+Petersburg+1876%22&lr=&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=Canonicus&f=false

[for Nicolai]

....caution...this information is from the University of Tartu aka
Dorpat!

[for Nicolai]

I realize that Google Books isn't accessible from some countries,
maybe if I set a direct Link!!!

from the University of Tartu aka Dorpat!

http://books.google.com/books?id=c6AtAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA293&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1GA8_FnRKKLMHq8zJ5ck5hUfUYlQ&ci=95%2C962%2C813%2C159&edge=0

[for Nicolai]

edilizio not edifizio
;)

[Joseph McMillan]

Post by for Nicolai
edilizio not edifizio
;)

No, if you look at the text image of the volume you cited, it says
"edifizio." Page 757, line 4.

[for Nicolai]

This doesn't change the subject!

[The Chief]

Post by for Nicolai
This doesn't change the subject!

Er.... what is the subject? Honestly, what is the point here?

Regards,
The Chief

[for Nicolai]

Just to repeat......



,,,,,the point is that supposedly the Order didn't exist in this time
and place,
and yet there he is being called a member of the Order!

Maybe we all can learn from this, of course only if you are willing!

I personally believe that the Order didn't just disappear into
oblivion,
due to obvious reasons they just went into hiding!

To gain a better understanding, I encourage everyone to read up on
this subject!

[for Nicolai]

To summarize the objections critics have thrown at me!

-- He didn't exist
(well I proved that he did)

-- University of Tartu / Dorpat didn't have a Catholic church
(proved that in fact Tartu had a Catholic Church)

-- That he never could have been Catholic!!!
(well I really proved this wrong)

-- Mohilev wasn't Catholic!
(...funny, I really don't have to get into this)

-- The Church of St. John of Jerusalem at the Corps des Pages wasn't
Catholic
(proved this wrong)

-- The SMOM in St. Petersburg wasn't Catholic
(has been proven wrong, all one has to do is read....Paul wanted
Orthodox included)

-- That he wasn't a member of the Order
(well the University of Tartu (who knew him personally) states
otherwise)

-- Why did they had to hide!
(because (at that time and region) the Catholic Church and it's
believers were tortured, banned, exiled, imprisoned, sent to Siberia,
stripped of their rank, had to hold Mass at midnight, churches were
burned and -or converted..... etc.)

Even the present Priest at the Church(in Riga) were he was Vicar
first,
didn't believe that he existed, had him check the old records..... he
become very emotional... called the visiting Cardinal and the whole
community to come by,
and they held a special Mass in his honor!

But what I find interesting is this......
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_Fija%C5%82kowski

are they related or a mistake was made and possibly the same person,
as of yet I have not been able to find the relation???

[The Chief]

Post by for Nicolai
To summarize the objections critics have thrown at me!
-- He didn't exist
   (well I proved that he did)
-- University of Tartu / Dorpat didn't have a Catholic church
   (proved that in fact Tartu had a Catholic Church)
-- That he never could have been Catholic!!!
   (well I really proved this wrong)
-- Mohilev wasn't Catholic!
   (...funny, I really don't have to get into this)
-- The Church of St. John of Jerusalem at the Corps des Pages wasn't
Catholic
   (proved this wrong)
-- The SMOM in St. Petersburg wasn't Catholic
   (has been proven wrong, all one has to do is read....Paul wanted
Orthodox included)
-- That he wasn't a member of the Order
   (well the University of Tartu (who knew him personally) states
otherwise)
-- Why did they had to hide!
   (because (at that time and region) the Catholic Church and it's
believers were tortured, banned, exiled, imprisoned, sent to Siberia,
stripped of their rank, had to hold Mass at midnight, churches were
burned and -or converted..... etc.)
Even the present Priest at the Church(in Riga) were he was Vicar
first,
didn't believe that he existed, had him check the old records..... he
become very emotional... called the visiting Cardinal and the whole
community to come by,
and they held a special Mass in his honor!
But what I find interesting is this......http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_Fija%C5%82kowski
are they related or a mistake was made and possibly the same person,
as of yet I have not been able to find the relation???

Thank you, I have a better understanding now. By the way, who was
throwing the objections?

Regards,
The Chief

[for Nicolai]

The objections came from "ALL" sides.... including some lower ranking
members!

[for Nicolai]

Before I get more objections,

yes the University of Tartu was in constant contact with him,
while he was a member of the faculty, he was also a full member of the
University's "Scholar Society" and while in St. Petersburg he was
corresponding member of the same!

So they were always informed!

[for Nicolai]

His transfer from Dorpat to St. Petersburg - 1874!

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[for Nicolai]

Shall I hold on and hope for an intelligent explanation,
or at least for an intelligent objection ?

Regards,
!

[Joseph McMillan]

Post by for Nicolai
Shall I hold on and hope for an intelligent explanation,
or at least for an intelligent objection ?
Regards,
!

You might hold on and hope to find someone else who actually cares, or
at least understands what you're trying to prove. But speaking as
someone who doesn't, on either front, it occurs to me that you may be
confusing two different things. To say that the Order of Malta was
suppressed in Russia in year N (and thus no organized structure of the
Order remained there) does not mean that an individual priest
affiliated with the Order might not be present in Russia in year N
+60. And, conversely, the presence in Russia of a Malta-affiliated
priest in year N+60 does not disprove the suppression of the Order in
year N.

Joseph McMillan

[for Nicolai]

Thank you Joseph,

it's a good point, but considering his age....
......................................
if there is one member...there had to be others!

Also considering that many of these Bishops just got released from
Siberia
and with the "newly" installed archdiocese ....they might have just
started to
feel comfortable to peek out of their hiding places!

[for Nicolai]

Also "Wilno" seemed to play an important role,
but "why" and to what extend still eludes me!

[for Nicolai]

Just so it's all together!
The new system finally allows to connect things, instead of having to constantly open a new discussion!

Continued, from last posts:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.heraldry/Fdi4ioPbj48

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