Imperial Orden Hispanoamericana de Carlos V

[George Lucki]

From the Royal Rwandan Association of Knights and Nobles...
"Another highlight of the trip was His Majesty met with the Duke of Seville,
and two
exchanged honors. The Duke of Seville, on behalf of his nephew the grand
master, Don
Enrique Ignacio de Borbon y Garcia de Lobez, Marques de Vallcarlos and
Grandee of Spain,
presented His Majesty King Kigeli V the Gran Placa of the Imperial Orden
Hispanoamericana de Carlos V."

Can someone tell me more about this order?

Earlier in the trip King Kigeli and his entourage also took senior
appointments in the Order of St. Lazarus (Malta Obedience) and of course the
Duke of Seville who heads up the Malta Obedience received royal Rwandan
honours.

George Lucki

[Franz]

Post by George Lucki
From the Royal Rwandan Association of Knights and Nobles...
"Another highlight of the trip was His Majesty met with the Duke of Seville,
and two
exchanged honors. The Duke of Seville, on behalf of his nephew the grand
master, Don
Enrique Ignacio de Borbon y Garcia de Lobez, Marques de Vallcarlos and
Grandee of Spain,
presented His Majesty King Kigeli V the Gran Placa of the Imperial Orden
Hispanoamericana de Carlos V."
Can someone tell me more about this order?
Earlier in the trip King Kigeli and his entourage also took senior
appointments in the Order of St. Lazarus (Malta Obedience) and of course the
Duke of Seville who heads up the Malta Obedience received royal Rwandan
honours.
George Lucki

Does the Duke head the Malta Obedience? I understand he has not been
confirmed as Grand Master by the Spiritual Protector (of both the
Malta and Paris Oedience), the Greek Melkite Catholic Patriarch, owing
to the Duke not being in communion with the R.C Church (of which he is
a member) and therefore not qualified as a member of the Order.

[Guye Pennington]

George, I googled the award when I was writing the article, and I
could not find anything of real value. I don't think it is an actual
Order but rather a state award of some sort. I could be very wrong
though... perhaps Guy Stair Sainty could shed some light on it?

Many thanks!
Guye

[Jonas Arnell]

Post by Guye Pennington
George, I googled the award when I was writing the article, and I
could not find anything of real value. I don't think it is an actual
Order but rather a state award of some sort. I could be very wrong
though... perhaps Guy Stair Sainty could shed some light on it?
Many thanks!
Guye

Indeed, I remember that he has done so in passing. By searching on
"Imperial Orden _Hispánica_ de Carlos V" that article should be more
easy to find. At any rate, very interesting information since I have
recently learnt that there are a couple of members of that order here
in Sweden.

/No, sorry, I was wrong, it does not appear unless you search in the
english form Hispanic Order of Carlos V. Here is the direct link
http://www.baronage.co.uk/2002/bfi-1.html/

Kind Regards,

Jonas Arnell

[g***@wp.pl]

Post by Jonas Arnell

Post by Guye Pennington
George, I googled the award when I was writing the article, and I
could not find anything of real value. I don't think it is an actual
Order but rather a state award of some sort. I could be very wrong
though... perhaps Guy Stair Sainty could shed some light on it?
Many thanks!
Guye

Indeed, I remember that he has done so in passing. By searching on
"Imperial Orden _Hispánica_ de Carlos V" that article should be more
easy to find. At any rate, very interesting information since I have
recently learnt that there are a couple of members of that order here
in Sweden.
/No, sorry, I was wrong, it does not appear unless you search in the
english form Hispanic Order of Carlos V. Here is the direct linkhttp://www.baronage.co.uk/2002/bfi-1.html/
Kind Regards,
Jonas Arnell

Thanks. Clearly a modern fantasy order - of course it has nothing to
do with the Spanish crown or the Spanish state. Makes you wonder who
would have advised King Kigeli to trade his orders for such a
meaningless bauble.
There is one colourful fellow who holds this order - see
http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.heraldry/browse_thread/thread/b3d73a5d0bc5a06b/d5403c0a3ef61011?lnk=gst&q=%22carlos+V%22&rnum=4&hl=en#d5403c0a3ef61011
It's still the biggest order-salad I've ever seen - I bet he lists a
bit when he wars them all.

George Lucki

[Guye Pennington]

Would someone mind posting the info from Baronage; I keep coming up
with a http error when I try to access it. If this order of Carlos V
is a fake, I will certainly remove it from that article. Does anyone
else see anything in the article (barring disputed Rwandan honors)
that is remotely controversial?

Many thanks!
Guye

[Nenad M. Jovanovich]

Well - Sao Teotonio...

Guye Pennington је написао

Post by Guye Pennington
Would someone mind posting the info from Baronage; I keep coming up
with a http error when I try to access it. If this order of Carlos V
is a fake, I will certainly remove it from that article. Does anyone
else see anything in the article (barring disputed Rwandan honors)
that is remotely controversial?
Many thanks!
Guye

[Franz]

Post by Guye Pennington
Would someone mind posting the info from Baronage; I keep coming up
with a http error when I try to access it. If this order of Carlos V
is a fake, I will certainly remove it from that article. Does anyone
else see anything in the article (barring disputed Rwandan honors)
that is remotely controversial?
Many thanks!
Guye

It would certainly not seem to be a 'shabby fake' (although it may not
be an authentic order), given that it is headed by the Marquis of
Vallcarlos, and presented by the Duke of Seville. Given that it was
presented as a courtesy from distinguished people, perhaps, in
reciprocal courtesy, it should appropriately be valued as a token of
friendship (in the same way as if a friend gives a gift which may be
of inferior quality, but is nonetheless proudly worn.)

[g***@wp.pl]

Post by Franz

Post by Guye Pennington
Would someone mind posting the info from Baronage; I keep coming up
with a http error when I try to access it. If this order of Carlos V
is a fake, I will certainly remove it from that article. Does anyone
else see anything in the article (barring disputed Rwandan honors)
that is remotely controversial?
Many thanks!
Guye

It would certainly not seem to be a 'shabby fake' (although it may not
be an authentic order), given that it is headed by the Marquis of
Vallcarlos, and presented by the Duke of Seville. Given that it was
presented as a courtesy from distinguished people, perhaps, in
reciprocal courtesy, it should appropriately be valued as a token of
friendship (in the same way as if a friend gives a gift which may be
of inferior quality, but is nonetheless proudly worn.)

I am in agreement with you about the nature of gifts. The difficulty
with a self-styled order is that the gift is not what seems (like a
genuine French Rolex :) or the gift presented my not belong to the
giver by matter of right. I am of course not suggesting that such an
order was not a token of sincere esteem.

George Lucki

[Guye Pennington]

Greetings, all! I have amended that portion of the article slightly
and just placed the revised sample article online. However, I left
the honor of Sao Teotonio segment as I haven't seen anything to make
me doubt its validity as a Catholic honor from the Diocese of Sao
Tome. It's not an Order as some have hinted at nor does it claim to
be. In the strictest sense, non-Catholics are not members, as they
are only honorary members, so I don't see it as anything but a
legitimate royal confraternity -- an assembly of the faithful. King
Kigeli is a very faithful Catholic, so I'm not sure as to why it
should not be included. Not trying to be argumentative, but am I
wrong here?

Many thanks!
Guye Pennington

[Nenad M. Jovanovich]

Mr Pennington, I'm afraid that you have confused two completely
different honors.

In fact, The Cross of Saint Thomas the Apostle of the Archdiocese of
Sao Tome and Principe is indeed an award for merit awarded by the
Bishop of the said Bishopric.

On the other hand, The Royal Confraternity of Sao Teotonio is a
completely different thing...

Guye Pennington је написао

Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! I have amended that portion of the article slightly
and just placed the revised sample article online. However, I left
the honor of Sao Teotonio segment as I haven't seen anything to make
me doubt its validity as a Catholic honor from the Diocese of Sao
Tome. It's not an Order as some have hinted at nor does it claim to
be. In the strictest sense, non-Catholics are not members, as they
are only honorary members, so I don't see it as anything but a
legitimate royal confraternity -- an assembly of the faithful. King
Kigeli is a very faithful Catholic, so I'm not sure as to why it
should not be included. Not trying to be argumentative, but am I
wrong here?
Many thanks!
Guye Pennington

[Franz]

Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! I have amended that portion of the article slightly
and just placed the revised sample article online. However, I left
the honor of Sao Teotonio segment as I haven't seen anything to make
me doubt its validity as a Catholic honor from the Diocese of Sao
Tome. It's not an Order as some have hinted at nor does it claim to
be. In the strictest sense, non-Catholics are not members, as they
are only honorary members, so I don't see it as anything but a
legitimate royal confraternity -- an assembly of the faithful. King
Kigeli is a very faithful Catholic, so I'm not sure as to why it
should not be included. Not trying to be argumentative, but am I
wrong here?
Many thanks!
Guye Pennington

Dear Mr. Pennington,

I see nothing to suggest that the Cofradia of Sao Teotonio is not a
valid Catholic organisation- indeed the involvements of bishops, etc.,
seem to establish this fact. And, as the King Kigeli supports the
organisation, then he should certainly include it. Indeed, it would
not be right to 'dump' references to it, just because it has been
questioned.

The points which may be raised include:
1) Can an organisation be 'Royal' without the involvement of currently
ruling Royals? My opinion is no, but this seems to be contrary to the
prevailing opinion.
2) The designations of the Confraternity "Knight", "Commander" and
"Grand Cross" seem to suggest it is, in fact, and Order of Knighthood,
which may increase its appeal to (and lead to misrepresentation by) a
certain type of person.

Ultimately, one must decide for oneself of the memberships, awards
etc., of which one is proud, and use them accordingly.

[barrassie]

Post by Franz

Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! I have amended that portion of the article slightly
and just placed the revised sample article online. However, I left
the honor of Sao Teotonio segment as I haven't seen anything to make
me doubt its validity as a Catholic honor from the Diocese of Sao
Tome. It's not an Order as some have hinted at nor does it claim to
be. In the strictest sense, non-Catholics are not members, as they
are only honorary members, so I don't see it as anything but a
legitimate royal confraternity -- an assembly of the faithful. King
Kigeli is a very faithful Catholic, so I'm not sure as to why it
should not be included. Not trying to be argumentative, but am I
wrong here?
Many thanks!
Guye Pennington

Dear Mr. Pennington,
I see nothing to suggest that the Cofradia of Sao Teotonio is not a
valid Catholic organisation- indeed the involvements of bishops, etc.,
seem to establish this fact. And, as the King Kigeli supports the
organisation, then he should certainly include it. Indeed, it would
not be right to 'dump' references to it, just because it has been
questioned.
1) Can an organisation be 'Royal' without the involvement of currently
ruling Royals? My opinion is no, but this seems to be contrary to the
prevailing opinion.
2) The designations of the Confraternity "Knight", "Commander" and
"Grand Cross" seem to suggest it is, in fact, and Order of Knighthood,
which may increase its appeal to (and lead to misrepresentation by) a
certain type of person.
Ultimately, one must decide for oneself of the memberships, awards
etc., of which one is proud, and use them accordingly.

An organisation can be styled Royal without being officially granted
and after a long time of unchallenged use becomes legitimate.
I once had a case where authorisation could not be found for the
style. On checking with the Government department responsible I was
informed that since the organisation had used the style Royal for a
suitable length of time without challenge the style Royal would be
recognised.
CMKH

[Don Aitken]

On 11 Mar 2007 03:53:37 -0700, "barrassie"

Post by barrassie
An organisation can be styled Royal without being officially granted
and after a long time of unchallenged use becomes legitimate.
I once had a case where authorisation could not be found for the
style. On checking with the Government department responsible I was
informed that since the organisation had used the style Royal for a
suitable length of time without challenge the style Royal would be
recognised.

But what could be done if he told you it was not "legitimate"? In
practice, nothing.

Although the word "royal" is not allowed as part of a company name
unless the Registrar of Companies is satisfied that its use is
justified, there is no control over its use by an unincorporated
business. The current West London phone book has a wonderful mixture,
from the impeccable Royal Asiatic Society and Royal Veterinary College
to the slightly less official Royal Arrow Teak Garden Furniture and
Royal Chelsea Cars. My favorite is the Royal Majestic Banqueting
Suite, Willesden Lane, which I am sure suffers no inconvenience from
being unrecognised by any government department.

[Jonas Arnell]

Post by Guye Pennington
Would someone mind posting the info from Baronage; I keep coming up
with a http error when I try to access it. If this order of Carlos V
is a fake, I will certainly remove it from that article. Does anyone
else see anything in the article (barring disputed Rwandan honors)
that is remotely controversial?
Many thanks!
Guye

Hi! Unfortunately the link was made useless through the addition of
one character - try http://www.baronage.co.uk/2002/bfi-1.html

/J

[Guy Stair Sainty]

You may read about this in Burke's World Orders of Knighthood and Merit in the
appendix, under self-styled Orders.

[f***@gmail.com]

I came across this discussion while searching about the Order of Charles V in English and I was surprised to read the false classification of the Order of Charles V as a fantasy order. I am not a member of the Order but I would be very happy to be invited, something that is very difficult to achieve. The Order was established by the father of King Juan Carlos I, the late Count of Barcelona and de jure Juan III of Spain. The Order is recognized by the Ministry of Defense and the government allows its insignia to be worn in all official events. As is common in many other orders of knighthood in Europe a junior member of the house can be allowed to serve as grand master of the order. In order to support my assertion regarding the official status of the order and the recognition of its insignia by the Ministry of Defense of Spain I will cite the following primary sources (not a secondary source such as a private webpage such as baronage, which is mostly focused on British titles and Orders):
The following webpage is the official webpage of the Ministry of the Interior which lists the Grand Cross of this Order next to other high decorations held by a General: Entre las numerosas condecoraciones recibidas fruto de su constancia, dedicación y esfuerzo, destacan la Gran Cruz del Merito Militar con distintivo blanco, la Gran Cruz de la Real y Militar Orden de San Hermenegildo, la Gran Placa de la Imperial Orden Hispánica de Carlos V, cuatro cruces de Plata de la Orden del Cuerpo, la Encomienda de la Orden de Isabel la Católica y la Encomienda y Cruz de la Orden del Mérito Civil

https://www.guardiacivil.es/es/institucional/actividadesInstitucionales/audiencias/18_04_2013.html

The Duke of San Luis (Grandee of Spain) also has this order: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:Rey_de_Armas

The territorial coordinator of Ceuta ( a part of Spain in North Africa in case you didn't know) receiving the order
http://www.ceutaldia.com/content/view/95184/31/

The ABC National Newspaper (one of the most prestigious news papers in Spain) announcing the investiture ceremony in 2009
http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/2009/11/21/079.html

And there are thousands of links such as the ones presented.
I understand that it is important to identify fake decorations but the problem is that people without any decorations themselves or with scant knowledge of foreign decorations end up mistaking real ones with fake ones. This is particularly a problem with Americans. The other day I read another forum listing the Order of St. Anne of Russia as a fake or self-styled order which is not true at all. It is actually authorized by the Russian government and it is one of the hardest Orders to get.

Post by g***@wp.pl

Post by Jonas Arnell

Post by Guye Pennington
George, I googled the award when I was writing the article, and I
could not find anything of real value. I don't think it is an actual
Order but rather a state award of some sort. I could be very wrong
though... perhaps Guy Stair Sainty could shed some light on it?
Many thanks!
Guye

Indeed, I remember that he has done so in passing. By searching on
"Imperial Orden _Hispánica_ de Carlos V" that article should be more
easy to find. At any rate, very interesting information since I have
recently learnt that there are a couple of members of that order here
in Sweden.
/No, sorry, I was wrong, it does not appear unless you search in the
english form Hispanic Order of Carlos V. Here is the direct linkhttp://www.baronage.co.uk/2002/bfi-1.html/
Kind Regards,
Jonas Arnell

Thanks. Clearly a modern fantasy order - of course it has nothing to
do with the Spanish crown or the Spanish state. Makes you wonder who
would have advised King Kigeli to trade his orders for such a
meaningless bauble.
There is one colourful fellow who holds this order - see
http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.heraldry/browse_thread/thread/b3d73a5d0bc5a06b/d5403c0a3ef61011?lnk=gst&q=%22carlos+V%22&rnum=4&hl=en#d5403c0a3ef61011
It's still the biggest order-salad I've ever seen - I bet he lists a
bit when he wars them all.
George Lucki