Seal of Robert fitz Pernel of Leicester d.1204

[Peter Howarth]

Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]

But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules, a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?

Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

Peter Howarth

[1] seals: 1195, W de G Birch, ‘Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum’ no 5674; n.d., R Ellis, ‘Catalogue of Seals in the Public Record Office’ nos P295, P296; the equestrian seals themselves have no coats of arms, but the counterseals, privy seals with the legend ROBERTI DE BRETVEL or BRETVIL, have checky shields. His great-grandmother was Isabel of Vermandois, daughter of the last of the Carolingians.

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Peter Howarth
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules, a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.

Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Peter Howarth
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules, a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.
Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).

I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?

Thanks very much

Peter Howarth

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Peter Howarth
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules, a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.
Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.

Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).

These attributed arms are now part of the College's canon. The practice
is followed to this day when you ask them to grant some arms for all the
descendants of your grandfather, to include your cousins in. So your
non-armigerous-in-his-lifetime grandfather then has arms after his
death. Rules is rules.

Post by Peter Howarth
I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?

Only that the College gave these references to their records when they
did some work for my late father some 20 or so years ago. They will
tell you more if you ask them and are prepared to pay their fees for
doing some work for you.

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by Peter Howarth
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules, a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.
Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.

Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).

These attributed arms are now part of the College's canon. The practice
is followed to this day when you ask them to grant some arms for all the
descendants of your grandfather, to include your cousins in. So your
non-armigerous-in-his-lifetime grandfather then has arms after his
death. Rules is rules.

Post by Peter Howarth
I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?

Only that the College gave these references to their records when they
did some work for my late father some 20 or so years ago. They will
tell you more if you ask them and are prepared to pay their fees for
doing some work for you.
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

I see two different sets of rules. Attributed arms are very useful for displaying descent from ancestors who may have lived before heraldry was widely adopted. The rules governing their use are essentially genealogical, determining whether you are entitled to display such descent. Your website is an excellent example of how it should be done. The other set of rules are essentially historical, governing what arms, if any, that person actually bore during their lifetime and how that fits into the history of heraldry. Both sets of rules are equally valid, but they serve different purposes.

Regarding the College of Arms references, Wagner, in 'The Records and Collections of the College of Arms' (1952) p 23, mentions a series of volumes called Norfolk, instituted in 1766 and with the then current volume at number 39, containing registers of pedigrees. Judging by the pedigrees in the earlier visitations, these records, whilst useful genealogically, are unlikely to have much evidence for the heraldry. I suspect that any money spent on searching them would be wasted for me.

Many thanks for the information, but it looks as if I will have to continue looking for the source of Fox-Davies’ illustration.

Peter Howarth

[Peter Howarth]

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