The English Origins of the Hamilton Family

[Don Glossinger]

Hi all,

I follow rec.heraldry closely, as I find the discussions very
interesting, but I seldom post. When I have posted, it is usually a
question regarding Hamilton heraldry. I have now written a paper I
would like to share that resolves the origins of the Hamilton family.
My argument is that the villein Gilbert son of William de Hamelton who
was "given" to the church of St. Mary's of Lancaster, England between
1246 and 1261 was the Gilbert de Hamildun, clericus who witnessed a
charter for the monks of Paisley Abbey, Scotland in 1272 and that he
was the founder of the Hamilton family.

Please see:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/MsDNA/WFG.htm

A scan of the important 1246-1261 document that ties everything
together can be seen at:
http://donglossinger.web.officelive.com/default.aspx

I do touch on the Hamilton heraldry in my paper.

I appreciate the help I have been given at rec.heraldry in the past.
And thank you for many interesting discussions.

Best Regards,
Don Glossinger

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I wonder whether you would include the 'Gilberto filio Walt'i', who
was a witness to a charter of 1166x1182 by Earl Waldeve of the
pastures of Lambermor to the monks of Melrose (Melrose charter 76),
among the ancestors of the Hamiltons?

[Don Glossinger]

On Nov 22, 2:01 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
I wonder whether you would include the 'Gilberto filio Walt'i', who
was a witness to a charter of 1166x1182 by Earl Waldeve of the
pastures of Lambermor to the monks of Melrose (Melrose charter 76),
among the ancestors of the Hamiltons?

Alex,

Thanks for your interest. I do know that there were Hamiltons
involved in Melrose in 1223.
see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0gsXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA259&dq=%22john+riddell%22+and+northumberland+and+hamilton&hl=en&ei=h_7qTKvSItmlnAet8omsDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

or keywords: "john riddell" and northumberland and hamilton

However, I have no knowledge of the charter you refer to so I can't
help.

Best Regards,
Don

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I would be interested to know whether you have considered the coat of
arms of the Umfravilles, who inherited the Earldom of Angus, It is
Gules a cinquefoil Or, in David Lyndsay, and the same basic coat
appears in the English rolls of the reign of Edward I (Aspilogia
III). Furthermore the Umfravilles used Gilbert as one of their most
common Chrsitian names and there is a Hamilton, now called Embleton,
south of Berwick on the Northumbrian coast not far from Prudhoe, the
Umfraville seat.

While I accept that there was a Gilbert son of William de Hamilton in
the charter you quote, Gilbert was a not uncommon name at this
period. If it were conjoined with Walter, then there would be a
higher probability that there was a Scottish Hamilton connection. The
Robert and Roger de Hameldun in Melrose charter 305, as refered to by
Riddell would doubtless belong to this family.

[Don Glossinger]

On Nov 23, 7:52 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
I would be interested to know whether you have considered the coat of
arms of the Umfravilles, who inherited the Earldom of Angus, It is
Gules a cinquefoil Or, in David Lyndsay, and the same basic coat
appears in the English rolls of the reign of Edward I (Aspilogia
III).  Furthermore the Umfravilles used Gilbert as one of their most
common Chrsitian names and there is a Hamilton, now called Embleton,
south of Berwick on the Northumbrian coast not far from Prudhoe, the
Umfraville seat.
While I accept that there was a Gilbert son of William de Hamilton  in
the charter you quote, Gilbert was a not uncommon name at this
period.  If it were conjoined with Walter, then there would be a
higher probability that there was a Scottish Hamilton connection.  The
Robert and Roger de Hameldun in Melrose charter 305, as refered to by
Riddell would doubtless belong to this family.

Alex,

Yes, I considered the heraldry and first names in great depth. I
glossed over
it in this paper because my thesis starts with the presumption that
Walter Fitzgilbert
was not initially a member of the noble class. If this is the case he
likely wouldn't have
had a coat of arms until the time he became a knight between 1321 and
1323
or at least not before 1314. This being the case the cinquefoils as
evidence as to
his origins wouldn't be all that valuable.

I am curious to know how you see the connection of the Hamiltons to
the
Umfravilles. Do you see them as descendants? Or do you see them as
vassals of
the Umfravilles?

Keep in mind that in traditional (undocumented) Hamilton genealogy
Gilbert is said
to be the son of William.

Best Regards,
Don

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Post by Don Glossinger
On Nov 23, 7:52 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
I would be interested to know whether you have considered the coat of
arms of the Umfravilles, who inherited the Earldom of Angus, It is
Gules a cinquefoil Or, in David Lyndsay, and the same basic coat
appears in the English rolls of the reign of Edward I (Aspilogia
III).  Furthermore the Umfravilles used Gilbert as one of their most
common Chrsitian names and there is a Hamilton, now called Embleton,
south of Berwick on the Northumbrian coast not far from Prudhoe, the
Umfraville seat.
While I accept that there was a Gilbert son of William de Hamilton  in
the charter you quote, Gilbert was a not uncommon name at this
period.  If it were conjoined with Walter, then there would be a
higher probability that there was a Scottish Hamilton connection.  The
Robert and Roger de Hameldun in Melrose charter 305, as refered to by
Riddell would doubtless belong to this family.

Alex,
Yes, I considered the heraldry and first names in great depth.  I
glossed over
it in this paper because my thesis starts with the presumption that
Walter Fitzgilbert
was not initially a member of the noble class.  If this is the case he
likely wouldn't have
had a coat of arms until the time he became a knight between 1321 and
1323
or at least not before 1314.  This being the case the cinquefoils as
evidence as to
his origins wouldn't be all that valuable.
I am curious to know how you see the connection of the Hamiltons to
the
Umfravilles.  Do you see them as descendants?  Or do you see them as
vassals of
the Umfravilles?
Keep in mind that in traditional (undocumented) Hamilton genealogy
Gilbert is said
to be the son of William.
Best Regards,
Don- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I have done no detailed work on the Hamilton family, but the arms
whether as of descent or of allegiance are very similar to those of
Umfraville, much more so than to the arms of the earls of Leicester
(the pimpernel or cinquefoil was probably a canting device of Pernel
Countess of Leicester (d 1212); it does not seem to hasve been used
before her time; for argument see Aspilogia II p 145 top. The arms of
the earls of Leicester were checky or lozengy, derived from those of
their ancestress Isabel de Vermandois). That we have Gilbert
Fitzwalter in 1166x1182 in a Scottish context, that John FitzGilbert
was also a homager in 1296, in Co Perth, suggests that the family had
been established as landowners for some years - how long I doubt one
can tell.

As to the arms, while a man might not have cause to use arms until he
acquired land, that does not mean that he might not have an historic
connection to arms, ie that he could be a younger son, or descended of
same, of a family whose head was then either currently or historically
armigerous. The consensus is that arms, at least in Britain, became
current in the first half of the C12, which in this context is before
the known history of the family.

Consider the rise of the Randolph family: although the Scots Peerage
gets it hopelessly wrong, it now seems accepted that they came north
to make their way through a younger son of the Greystokes. But their
arms, and their land-holdings, appear only very much later, and the
arms are indeed similar to those of Greystoke.

[Philip Cheyney]

On Nov 25, 8:01 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:
 The consensus is that arms, at least in Britain, became

Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
current in the first half of the C12, which in this context is before
the known history of the family.

I apologise for picking up what is a minor point in what you were
saying overall about the Hamiltons, but I feel it should not pass
unnoticed.

Adrian Ailes, "Heraldry in Twelfth-Century England: the Evidence", in
'England in the Twelfth Century: Proceedings of the 1988 Harlaxton
Symposium' (ed. Daniel Williams) has looked in detail at seals,
manuscript illumination, literary texts and other sources, and all his
examples before 1194 [my choice of year], apart from Richard I's first
Great Seal, are limited to those of comital rank -- no lower
aristocracy, no gentry.

1194 was the year Richard I first displayed three leopards on his
second Great Seal and, perhaps more importantly, the year he
designated five specific sites in England where tournaments were to be
permitted for the first time. And it is shortly after that date that
the more wide-spread use of heraldry seems to have blossomed.

I believe that heraldry started when the earls led their retinues of
knights against each other in mock battles on the tournament field.
In the beginning, the principal event at a tournament was always the
mêlée, where two or more groups of mounted knights charged at each
other en masse under their patron's banner, before breaking up into a
free-for-all where knights from another retinue could be captured and
forced to give up their horses and equipment or to pay a ransom. It
was here that some form of corporate identity was useful. The horse
bards were often supplied by the patron, which provided an opportunity
for one retinue to recognise its own side easily. It would also help
if the decorations on the shields were sufficiently similar to aid
identification.

It is interesting that the three great comital families of Clare,
Mandeville and Warenne used the patterns chevronny, quarterly and
checky, which could be easily produced in fabric for banners and horse
bards. They were famous tourneyers and their arms were also the well-
known source for very similar coats used by other families within
their affinity.

So there are certainly isolated examples of proto-heraldry used by
counts and earls in the twelfth century, but the more general use of
heraldry proper started in England in the early thirteenth century.
And I doubt whether the Scots were much later, despite the lack of
evidence.

Philip

[Matt Tompkins]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Don Glossinger]

Post by Matt Tompkins

Post by Don Glossinger
I follow rec.heraldry closely, as I find the discussions very
interesting, but I seldom post.  When I have posted, it is usually a
question regarding Hamilton heraldry.  I have now written a paper I
would like to share that resolves the origins of the Hamilton family.
My argument is that the villein Gilbert son of William de Hamelton who
was "given" to the church of St. Mary's of Lancaster, England between
1246 and 1261 was the Gilbert de Hamildun, clericus who witnessed a
charter for the monks of Paisley Abbey, Scotland in 1272 and that he
was the founder of the Hamilton family.
Please see:http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/MsDNA/WFG.htm
A scan of the important 1246-1261 document that ties everything
together can be seen at:http://donglossinger.web.officelive.com/default.aspx
I do touch on the Hamilton heraldry in my paper.

Dear Don,
I have read your paper with great interest, especially the section
dealing with the grant of Gilbert son of William de Hamilton to St
Mary's priory in Lancaster (I append a more complete transcript, and a
translation, of the charter below).
I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of the gift of Gilbert
son of William to the priory.  It is unlikely to have been a release
of Gilbert from his serfdom so that he could become a monk or priest -
it is much more likely to have been a transfer of ownership, by which
Gilbert transferred from being the villein of John de Hackensall to
being the villein of the Priory.  It may be that the Priory received
nothing more than Gilbert's person, but I suspect it was more in the
nature of a transfer of Gilbert's landholding, carrying with it the
benefit of the rents and other services due from Gilbert as the
property's bonded tenant.
I have to say that while (as Michael Prestwich said) it isn't
impossible that a Lancastrian serf became a clerk in Scotland, it's
also rather improbable.  Apart from anything else, there were probably
other men called Gilbert de Hamilton knocking around at this time
(there were other places called Hamilton and Gilbert wasn't an
uncommon forename).
Incidentally, with regard to the question 'Are the cinquefoils of
Hamilton heraldry a clue to the family’s origin?', it's worth
mentioning that there is a village called Hamilton just a mile or two
outside Leicester, and of course the last Beaumont earl of Leicester,
Robert FitzPernell, famously used arms displaying a cinquefoil (as a
result of which the borough of Leicester did too).
Best wishes,
Matt Tompkins
Omnib[us] Christi fidelib[us] hoc scriptum visuris vel audituris
Joh[ann]es de Hacunshou salutem in d[omi]no.  Nov[er]it univ[er]sitas
v[est]ra me dedisse et |2 concessisse et p[re]senti carta confirmasse
d[e]o et eccl[esi]e b[eat]e marie de Lanc[astrie] et monachis ibidem
deo servientib[u]s in puram et p[er]p[e]tua[m] elomosinam |3
Gilb[er]tum filium Will[elm]i de Hamelton cum tota p[ro]genie ab
eod[em] egrediente ?gumq[ue] rebus possessio[n]ibus et catallis ab
eod[em] et ei[us] p[ro]genie possessis et |4 possidendis Tenend[a] et
h[abe]nda de me et h[er]edib[us] meis dictis eccl[iesi]e et monachis
adeo lib[er]e et quiete sicut aliqua elemosina dari vel |5 confirmari
poterit Et ego siquidem Joh[ann]es et he[re]des mei dictum Gilb[er]tum
et eius p[ro]geniem cu[m] possessionib[us] ab eod[em] possessis |6 et
possidendis dictis eccl[es]ie et monachis in om[n]ib[us] sicut
sup[ra]dictum e[st]  co[n]t[ra] om[n]es homines in perpet[u]um
warentizabim[us].  In c[uius] rei testimo[niu]m |7 huic sc[ri]pto
Sigillum meum apposui.  Hiis testib[us].   D[omi]no Will[elm]o de
Karlton, Will[elm]o de Singilton, Ricardo de Thornton, Rob[er]to de
Shi|8reburne, Simo[n]e de Hamelton et multis aliis
To all the faithful of Christ who shall see or hear this writing John
de Hackensall greets in the Lord.  Know all of you that I have given
and granted and by this present charter have confirmed to God and to
the church of the Blessed Mary of Lancaster and the monks serving God
there in pure and perpetual alms Gilbert son of William de Hamilton
with all progeny issuing from him, and all things, possessions and
chattels possessed and to be possessed by him and his progeny to Have
and to Hold from me and my heirs to the said church and monks as
freely and quietly as any alms can be given or confirmed.  And I John
and my heirs will forever warrant the said Gilbert and his progeny
with the possessions possessed and to be possessed by him to the said
church and monk in all things as abovesaid against all men.  In
witness whereof I have set my seal to this writing.  These being
witnesses: Sir William de Carlton, William de Singleton, Richard de
Thornton, Robert de Sherburne, Simon de Hambleton and many others.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Dear Matt,

Thank you very much for your comments and for taking the time to fully
transcribe and translate the document. When I discuss my paper on
our Hamilton DNA Project discussion group, I will refer the membership
back to this posting.

Best Regards,
Don

[Matt Tompkins]

Post by Don Glossinger
Dear Matt,
Thank you very much for your comments and for taking the time to fully
transcribe and translate the document.  When I discuss my paper on
our Hamilton DNA Project discussion group, I will refer the membership
back to this posting.
Best Regards,
Don

Dear Don,

you or any of your group are welcome to contact me directly if you'd
like to discuss the Lancaster priory charters in greater depth. In
the meantime, if you're doubtful whether it was possible for 13th-
century serfs to be sold, or to be sold to the church, see E. Miller
and J. Hatcher, Medieval England: Rural Society and Economic Change
1086-1348 (London, 1978), pp. 114-15, or P. Hyams, King, Lords and
Peasants in Medieval England: the Common Law of Villeinage in the
Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries (Oxford, 1980). Back in the late
19th and early 20th centuries there had been some debate as to whether
medieval lords could sell their villeins, with some historians arguing
that charters in which they purported to do so were really
manumissions disguised by obsolete phraseology (eg, Hone, The Manor
and Manorial Records (1906), pp. 16-17), but for the last century the
consensus has been that lords could and did sell their villeins.

Though a much better qualified person than me to opine about your
charters would be Paul Hyams, of Cornell University. A few years ago
he was activley collecting and analysing as many charters manumitting
villeins as he could find. He might be interested to receive details
of your Lancaster charters.

Matt

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article

Post by Matt Tompkins
Dear Don,
you or any of your group are welcome to contact me directly if you'd
like to discuss the Lancaster priory charters in greater depth. In
the meantime, if you're doubtful whether it was possible for 13th-
century serfs to be sold, or to be sold to the church, see E. Miller
and J. Hatcher, Medieval England: Rural Society and Economic Change
1086-1348 (London, 1978), pp. 114-15, or P. Hyams, King, Lords and
Peasants in Medieval England: the Common Law of Villeinage in the
Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries (Oxford, 1980). Back in the late
19th and early 20th centuries there had been some debate as to whether
medieval lords could sell their villeins, with some historians arguing
that charters in which they purported to do so were really
manumissions disguised by obsolete phraseology (eg, Hone, The Manor
and Manorial Records (1906), pp. 16-17), but for the last century the
consensus has been that lords could and did sell their villeins.
Though a much better qualified person than me to opine about your
charters would be Paul Hyams, of Cornell University. A few years ago
he was activley collecting and analysing as many charters manumitting
villeins as he could find. He might be interested to receive details
of your Lancaster charters.

I would second all of Matt's comments including his recommendation of
Paul Hyams. I have done some work that intersects with Paul's on legal
actions involving villeins, and we know one another slightly.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/

[Turenne]

George F. Black's 'Surnames of Scotland' gives 'The surname Hamilton
is not derived fromHamilton in Lanarkshire, but from some place in
England. There are several places name Hambledon or more commonly
Hambleton in Yorks, Lancs, Bucks and Northumberland'. The book also
confirms that 'A Gilbert de Hambledun, clericus, was one of
thewitnesses to a charter by Thomas de Cragyn to the monks at
Paisley'.

Debrett's Peerage of Scotland (1812) says concerning the Dukes of
Hamilton that 'the first name on record is Sir William de Hambleden or
Hambleton of the county of Bucks, of which manor he possessed, 3rd son
of Robert, Earl of Leicester (descended from the Earl of Mellent in
Normandy) so created in 1103...........who in 1168 became 3rd Earl of
Leicester, steward of England....

Richard L

[Don Glossinger]

Post by Turenne
George F. Black's 'Surnames of Scotland' gives 'The surname Hamilton
is not derived fromHamilton in Lanarkshire, but from some place in
England. There are several places name Hambledon or more commonly
Hambleton in Yorks, Lancs, Bucks and Northumberland'. The book also
confirms that 'A Gilbert de Hambledun, clericus, was one of
thewitnesses to a charter by Thomas de Cragyn to the monks at
Paisley'.
Debrett's Peerage of Scotland (1812) says concerning the Dukes of
Hamilton that 'the first name on record is Sir William de Hambleden or
Hambleton of the county of Bucks, of which manor he possessed, 3rd son
of Robert, Earl of Leicester (descended from the Earl of Mellent in
Normandy) so created in 1103...........who in 1168 became 3rd Earl of
Leicester, steward of England....
Richard L

Richard,

Thank you for the information.

Don

[Don Glossinger]

Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article

Post by Matt Tompkins
Dear Don,
you or any of your group are welcome to contact me directly if you'd
like to discuss the Lancaster priory charters in greater depth.  In
the meantime, if you're doubtful whether it was possible for 13th-
century serfs to be sold, or to be sold to the church, see E. Miller
and J. Hatcher, Medieval England: Rural Society and Economic Change
1086-1348 (London, 1978), pp. 114-15, or P. Hyams, King, Lords and
Peasants in Medieval England: the Common Law of Villeinage in the
Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries (Oxford, 1980).  Back in the late
19th and early 20th centuries there had been some debate as to whether
medieval lords could sell their villeins, with some historians arguing
that charters in which they purported to do so were really
manumissions disguised by obsolete phraseology (eg, Hone, The Manor
and Manorial Records (1906), pp. 16-17), but for the last century the
consensus has been that lords could and did sell their villeins.
Though a much better qualified person than me to opine about your
charters would be Paul Hyams, of Cornell University.  A few years ago
he was activley collecting and analysing as many charters manumitting
villeins as he could find.  He might be interested to receive details
of your Lancaster charters.

I would second all of Matt's comments including his recommendation of
Paul Hyams.  I have done some work that intersects with Paul's on legal
actions involving villeins, and we know one another slightly.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:  http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Nat,

Thank you.

Don

[Don Glossinger]

Post by Matt Tompkins

Post by Don Glossinger
Dear Matt,
Thank you very much for your comments and for taking the time to fully
transcribe and translate the document.  When I discuss my paper on
our Hamilton DNA Project discussion group, I will refer the membership
back to this posting.
Best Regards,
Don

Dear Don,
you or any of your group are welcome to contact me directly if you'd
like to discuss the Lancaster priory charters in greater depth.  In
the meantime, if you're doubtful whether it was possible for 13th-
century serfs to be sold, or to be sold to the church, see E. Miller
and J. Hatcher, Medieval England: Rural Society and Economic Change
1086-1348 (London, 1978), pp. 114-15, or P. Hyams, King, Lords and
Peasants in Medieval England: the Common Law of Villeinage in the
Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries (Oxford, 1980).  Back in the late
19th and early 20th centuries there had been some debate as to whether
medieval lords could sell their villeins, with some historians arguing
that charters in which they purported to do so were really
manumissions disguised by obsolete phraseology (eg, Hone, The Manor
and Manorial Records (1906), pp. 16-17), but for the last century the
consensus has been that lords could and did sell their villeins.
Though a much better qualified person than me to opine about your
charters would be Paul Hyams, of Cornell University.  A few years ago
he was activley collecting and analysing as many charters manumitting
villeins as he could find.  He might be interested to receive details
of your Lancaster charters.
Matt

Dear Matt,

Thank you very much. I wish I had made your aquaintance while I was
writing the paper, but I'm glad to know you now.

I do plan to pursue the research of the charter and find out just as
much
as possible. I appreciate the information and referrals.

I will contact you directly. I realize this is off topic and don't
want to make
a nuisance of myself.

Best Regards,
Don

[m***@gmail.com]

Don, I hope you still attend this forum. Through DNA and historical research we (the Crispin Cousins team) have confirmed your thesis is correct. Years of research led to this most recent post:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/crispincousins/conversations/messages/4538

It’s a terribly long story, but we now know the Hamilton families of Scotland represented by the Y-STR groups B and C are branches of the family de la Mare enfeoffed by a predecessor of Geoffrey Arblaster. A branch of the family de la Mare took the name de la Cunelle before enfeoffed at Hambleton, Lancashire. Another close kin is of the family Fresnel, as represented by the family Frame, close genetic cousins of Hamilton B and C. These families de la Mare aka Alis, de la Cunelle and de Ferte-Fresnel are charter co-witnesses and vassals of William de Breteuil. The cinquefoil is among the emblems of the descendants of Theroulde de Tourville and Campigny. I believe all these families and certain I1 Harris families are among Theroulde's paternal descendants. (his Harris descendants from Hericourt-en-Caux bear cinquefoils on a bend)

Incidentally, just as many other Normans, Theroulde is in England well before the Conquest. His name is memorialized in many English villages, include places named Thurlaston (Theroulde’s town). At Thurlaston, Leicestershire, for example, the hypothesis is confirmed by finding lords from the families of Campigny and Tourville. Another such place is Theroulde’s holm (Thoroldesholm, Torrisholme) near Lancaster.

The antiquary William Smith Ellis realized, as is now abundantly clear to me as well, that heraldry is much more ancient than many modern scholars appreciate. As I explain at Crispin Cousins, the name Theroulde essentially means "Hawthorn hedge," which is why many of his descendants bear the cinquefoil as an emblem. Others bear martlets or the equivalent fleur-de-lis (a stylized raven, not a flower). Yet others bear leopard faces, while some families combine the leopard face and fleur de lis (leopard face jessant de lis). We are fortunate that William Smith Ellis focused his energy on this family.

Cheers,
Michael Harris

Post by Don Glossinger
Hi all,
I follow rec.heraldry closely, as I find the discussions very
interesting, but I seldom post. When I have posted, it is usually a
question regarding Hamilton heraldry. I have now written a paper I
would like to share that resolves the origins of the Hamilton family.
My argument is that the villein Gilbert son of William de Hamelton who
was "given" to the church of St. Mary's of Lancaster, England between
1246 and 1261 was the Gilbert de Hamildun, clericus who witnessed a
charter for the monks of Paisley Abbey, Scotland in 1272 and that he
was the founder of the Hamilton family.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/MsDNA/WFG.htm
A scan of the important 1246-1261 document that ties everything
http://donglossinger.web.officelive.com/default.aspx
I do touch on the Hamilton heraldry in my paper.
I appreciate the help I have been given at rec.heraldry in the past.
And thank you for many interesting discussions.
Best Regards,
Don Glossinger

[h***@gmail.com]

Don, I hope you still attend this forum. Through DNA and historical research we (the Crispin Cousins team) have confirmed your thesis is correct. Years of research led to this most recent post:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/crispincousins/conversations/messages/4538

It’s a terribly long story, but we now know the Hamilton families of Scotland represented by the Y-STR groups B and C are branches of the family de la Mare enfeoffed by a predecessor of Geoffrey Arblaster. A branch of the family de la Mare took the name de la Cunelle before enfeoffed at Hambleton, Lancashire. Another close kin is of the family Fresnel, as represented by the family Frame, close genetic cousins of Hamilton B and C. These families de la Mare aka Alis, de la Cunelle and de Ferte-Fresnel are charter co-witnesses and vassals of William de Breteuil. The cinquefoil is among the emblems of the descendants of Theroulde de Tourville and Campigny. I believe all these families and certain I1 Harris families are among Theroulde's paternal descendants. (his Harris descendants from Hericourt-en-Caux bear cinquefoils on a bend)

Incidentally, just as many other Normans, Theroulde is in England well before the Conquest. His name is memorialized in many English villages, include places named Thurlaston (Theroulde’s town). At Thurlaston, Leicestershire, for example, the hypothesis is confirmed by finding lords from the families of Campigny and Tourville. Another such place is Theroulde’s holm (Thoroldesholm, Torrisholme) near Lancaster.

The antiquary William Smith Ellis realized, as is now abundantly clear to me as well, that heraldry is much more ancient than many modern scholars appreciate. As I explain at Crispin Cousins, the name Theroulde essentially means "Hawthorn hedge," which is why many of his descendants bear the cinquefoil as an emblem. Others bear martlets or the equivalent fleur-de-lis (a stylized raven, not a flower). Yet others bear leopard faces, while some families combine the leopard face and fleur de lis (leopard face jessant de lis). We are fortunate that William Smith Ellis focused his energy on this family.

Cheers,
Michael Harris

Post by Don Glossinger
Hi all,
I follow rec.heraldry closely, as I find the discussions very
interesting, but I seldom post. When I have posted, it is usually a
question regarding Hamilton heraldry. I have now written a paper I
would like to share that resolves the origins of the Hamilton family.
My argument is that the villein Gilbert son of William de Hamelton who
was "given" to the church of St. Mary's of Lancaster, England between
1246 and 1261 was the Gilbert de Hamildun, clericus who witnessed a
charter for the monks of Paisley Abbey, Scotland in 1272 and that he
was the founder of the Hamilton family.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/MsDNA/WFG.htm
A scan of the important 1246-1261 document that ties everything
http://donglossinger.web.officelive.com/default.aspx
I do touch on the Hamilton heraldry in my paper.
I appreciate the help I have been given at rec.heraldry in the past.
And thank you for many interesting discussions.
Best Regards,
Don Glossinger

[m***@le.ac.uk]

On Monday, 22 May 2017 00:21:50 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

Post by m***@gmail.com
Incidentally, just as many other Normans, Theroulde is in England well before the Conquest. His name is memorialized in many English villages, include places named Thurlaston (Theroulde’s town). At Thurlaston, Leicestershire, for example, the hypothesis is confirmed by finding lords from the families of Campigny and Tourville. Another such place is Theroulde’s holm (Thoroldesholm, Torrisholme) near Lancaster.

<snip>

Michael, you are aware that early forms of the names of the Thurlastons in Leicestershire and Warwickshire don't support your frankly improbable thesis? Torlauestone, Thorlauistone, Torlawestone, Thorlaweston, Thurlaveston(e) and Turlaueston (in Warwickshire) and Turlaueston, Thurlaveston, Turlauestan, Turleston(e) and Turlestan (in Leicestershire) all point towards a derivation from the Scandinavian personal name Thorleifr.

Matt Tompkins