Discussion:
arms of the new princess..
(too old to reply)
3ARwun
2018-05-28 11:37:58 UTC
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I don't believe, I just can't believe that nobody has posted the arms of the new princess, at this late of a date....
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2018-05-30 13:45:33 UTC
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Post by 3ARwun
I don't believe, I just can't believe that nobody has posted the arms of the new princess, at this late of a date....
I see no new princess.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ***@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Robert dCZ
2018-05-31 13:40:32 UTC
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You mean the new duchess?
3ARwun
2018-06-05 03:30:05 UTC
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Post by Robert dCZ
You mean the new duchess?
Some would argue that a Duke technically outranks a Prince, some would not.
Robert dCZ
2018-06-05 13:04:26 UTC
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Well not a royal Prince in line of succession I'd say?
n***@gmail.com
2018-06-05 19:08:54 UTC
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Post by 3ARwun
Post by Robert dCZ
You mean the new duchess?
Some would argue that a Duke technically outranks a Prince, some would not.
Depends on the Duke, depends on the Prince, depends on the nobility system of the person doing the ranking.

Some Princes (particularly smaller German Princes) would have been Count-level or barely above Count-level. In other countries a sovereign prince would have been roughly at the level of a Marquis or above (Ie: at least a full step above Count, and possibly two). But Napoleonic Princes outranked Dukes.It does not help that different European languages have a different number of words for the people English calls Duke/Prince. Slavic languages generally have only one (Knyaz or the local variant), whereas the Germans have three (Furst, Prinz, and Herzog).

In Princess Meghen's case, she's technically not a British princess. She can use the title by courtesy, but she was not born into the Royal family. However, the wife of a Duke actually becomes a Duchess, so she is a Duchess.

To my knowledge the Brits have never had a table of ranks outlining whether Harry, Prince of 16 Commonwealth countries, outranks Harry, Duke of Sussex. Altho they have indicated that Harry, son of Prince Charles, would outrank a Duke, that's not quite the same as saying Prince Harry outranks Duke Harry. So Harry got "raised to the peerage."

Nick
3ARwun
2018-06-05 03:28:45 UTC
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Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Post by 3ARwun
I don't believe, I just can't believe that nobody has posted the arms of the new princess, at this late of a date....
I see no new princess.
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
you're being captious because there is a difference between a commoner marrying a prince, and blah,blah,blah? yes, I know, I know...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2018-06-06 11:05:25 UTC
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Post by 3ARwun
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Post by 3ARwun
I don't believe, I just can't believe that nobody has posted the arms of the new princess, at this late of a date....
I see no new princess.
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
you're being captious because there is a difference between a commoner marrying a prince, and blah,blah,blah? yes, I know, I know...
Not quite agreed. There is a new designation that refers to the lady as
"Princess Harry of Wales" but this does not make the lady a princess,
whereas a marriage to a dook definitely makes her a duchess though not
in her own right (de jure).

Talking of de jure, it would seem fair to me if Princess Anne was made a
duchess. Similarly with the late Princess Margaret who was never (to my
knowledge) a peer in her own right.

But what do royal titles have to do with fairness?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ***@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Richard Smith
2018-06-06 18:40:33 UTC
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Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Not quite agreed. There is a new designation that refers to the lady as
"Princess Harry of Wales" but this does not make the lady a princess,
whereas a marriage to a dook definitely makes her a duchess though not
in her own right (de jure).
So why was the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester almost invariably called
Princess Alice after her husband's death?

Richard
n***@gmail.com
2018-06-08 03:05:29 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Not quite agreed. There is a new designation that refers to the lady as
"Princess Harry of Wales" but this does not make the lady a princess,
whereas a marriage to a dook definitely makes her a duchess though not
in her own right (de jure).
So why was the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester almost invariably called
Princess Alice after her husband's death?
Richard
Because in traditional British practice, the fact you're called a Princess does not automatically make you a Princess. Which makes roughly half of the people the British call "Princess" not Princesses. I don't know why.

I can figure out the reasoning behind calling someone Princess Michael, I can divine why 90% of the peole they refer to with the "Lady" are technically not in the nobility, but I do not understand this. It comes up in every wedding, and people who know always say that the woman who is about to be Princess Kate is not actually going to be Princess, but she will be a Duchess.

Nick
Robert dCZ
2018-06-08 12:47:41 UTC
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Well Kate is going to become the Princess of Wales upon ascension of Charles to the throne by the merit of William then becoming Prince of Wales. But short of Harry becoming Prince of Wales by some horrible fluke of fate his newly acquired duchess will never be a princess.

And any children the new Duke and duchess may have will not have the honorific HRH themselves, and only the actual heir becomes a Duke (or now duchess) upon the demise of Harry. All other children would become commoners upon ascension of the heir unless they have titles bestowed on them by the monarch.

Do I remember the rules correctly?
n***@gmail.com
2018-06-10 08:48:06 UTC
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Post by Robert dCZ
Well Kate is going to become the Princess of Wales upon ascension of Charles to the throne by the merit of
William then becoming Prince of Wales. But short of Harry becoming Prince of Wales by some horrible fluke
of fate his newly acquired duchess will never be a princess.
And any children the new Duke and duchess may have will not have the honorific HRH themselves, and only
the actual heir becomes a Duke (or now duchess) upon the demise of Harry. All other children would
become commoners upon ascension of the heir unless they have titles bestowed on them by the monarch.
Do I remember the rules correctly?
When Charles succeeds Harry will be son of the sovereign, and his children will be grandchildren of the sovereign. As such they will be HRH Princes. and Princesses just like Michael of Kent. IIRC the next generation loses the HRH, but they get to be Lords and Ladies with the precedence of the children of a Duke.

Nick
Robert dCZ
2018-06-10 15:13:58 UTC
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What about the generation after that though?
n***@gmail.com
2018-06-11 15:43:08 UTC
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Post by Robert dCZ
What about the generation after that though?
I believe sons of a Duke's sons get to be Hons. So it would go Prince Harry, Prince Harry Jr, Lord Harry III, the Honourable Harry IV.

Nick
Robert dCZ
2018-06-12 12:33:37 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Robert dCZ
What about the generation after that though?
I believe sons of a Duke's sons get to be Hons. So it would go Prince Harry, Prince Harry Jr, Lord Harry III, the Honourable Harry IV.
Nick
So only Harry V would be a commoner again.
Thanks a lot for that.
Much appreciated indeed.

Cheers,
Robert.
Richard Smith
2018-06-12 17:16:59 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Robert dCZ
What about the generation after that though?
I believe sons of a Duke's sons get to be Hons.
Do you have a source that says the sons of the younger sons of a duke
(or marquess for that matter) are styled "The Hon."? The sources I can
find are inconclusive on that point.

Richard
n***@gmail.com
2018-06-13 22:37:35 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Robert dCZ
What about the generation after that though?
I believe sons of a Duke's sons get to be Hons.
Do you have a source that says the sons of the younger sons of a duke
(or marquess for that matter) are styled "The Hon."? The sources I can
find are inconclusive on that point.
Richard
Nope. Just my memory, which is not particularly reliable.

I also could have sworn that the eldest of of the son of peer got to be honorable in perpetuity, but I also can't find a source for that at the moment.

Nick
Richard Smith
2018-06-13 23:50:54 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Richard Smith
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Robert dCZ
What about the generation after that though?
I believe sons of a Duke's sons get to be Hons.
Do you have a source that says the sons of the younger sons of a duke
(or marquess for that matter) are styled "The Hon."? The sources I can
find are inconclusive on that point.
Nope. Just my memory, which is not particularly reliable.
I think you're probably right about it, and I can find a number of
references to The Hon. Leopold Windsor, the second son of the second son
of the Duke of Kent. But I hoped I'd might find a definitive reference.
Post by n***@gmail.com
I also could have sworn that the eldest of of the son of peer got to
be honorable in perpetuity, but I also can't find a source for that at
the moment.
I think it's going to depend on the peerage.

Richard
Peter Howarth
2018-06-14 05:06:43 UTC
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Let us go back to basic principles. Royalty only extends to grandchildren of the sovereign; after that they become 'non-royals'. Peerages of the United Kingdom, unlike those of some other countries, extend only to the actual holder of the title, so peers' children are all commoners, including the eldest son before he inherits the title. However, by tradition they are often given courtesy titles. It must be remembered that they are only courtesy titles, they cannot be insisted upon, and cannot be passed on. Lord Peter Wimsey, a younger son of a duke, is a commoner and does not pass any title, courtesy or otherwise, to his children.

Journalists don't have time to look things up properly or to think things through logically, and so regularly get titles wrong. We should not be misled by their mistakes. Instead, apply the principles above: peerages apply only to the holder of the title, and courtesy titles, if applied, only last for one generation.

Peter Howarth
Robert dCZ
2018-06-14 14:42:39 UTC
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Thanks Peter.
That is exactly the explanation I was looking for because it was what I vaguely seemed to remember having been told before many years back by someone whose job it was to know these things.
Richard Smith
2018-06-14 22:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Let us go back to basic principles. Royalty only extends to
grandchildren of the sovereign; after that they become 'non-royals'.
Peerages of the United Kingdom, unlike those of some other countries,
extend only to the actual holder of the title, so peers' children are
all commoners, including the eldest son before he inherits the title.
Agreed. But we're talking about courtesy titles here, and they're
titles borne by commoners.
Journalists don't have time to look things up properly or to think
things through logically, and so regularly get titles wrong.
Where do you expect journalists to look it up? I've tried quite a few
of the obvious sources, and very few of them address the issue of
grandchildren of peers, other than the heir apparent of the heir
apparent who would normally get a secondary courtesy title, if one is
available.

If you look instead for example in the common reference works, you often
find errors in them, frequently due to them not being properly updated
when the holder of the substantive title dies.
Debrett's, which is generally well-regarded (perhaps more than it really
deserves), is a good example of that. Look up Princess Margaret's
granddaughter, Margarita Armstrong-Jones. As the daughter of an earl
(and not just one by courtesy) she unquestionably gets the title "Lady",
but Debrett's labels her "The Hon." instead.

Any recent changes to the use of courtesy titles will have been made
under an Earl Marshal's warrant or (less likely) letters patent, but
these are almost impossible to locate. In any case, most of these
styles has not been formally defined and is simply a matter of custom.
We should not be misled by their mistakes. Instead, apply the principles
above: peerages apply only to the holder of the title, and courtesy
titles, if applied, only last for one generation.
Except that's definitely not true as there are some very clear cases
when grandsons gain a courtesy title. Lord Culloden (the eldest son of
the eldest son of the Duke of Gloucester) and Lord Downpatrick (the
eldest son of the eldest son of the Duke of Kent) are examples.

It's also pretty clear that the daughters of an earl by courtesy are all
styled Lady, just as they would be for a substantive earl. For example,
Lord Downpatrick's sister is consistently styled Lady Marina Windsor
when she appears in the daily Court Circular released by Buckingham
Palace. I think repeated use in the Court Circular can be considered to
make the usage correct by precedence, regardless of what rules may exist
on the subject.

Similarly, children of viscounts by courtesy are styled Hon. An example
is the Princess Margaret's grandson, the current Viscount Linley.
Before the death of his grandfather, the first Earl of Snowdon, he was
consistently styled The Hon. Charles Armstrong-Jones in the Court
Circular, just as he would have been if his father was a proper viscount
rather than one by courtesy.

I think these examples make it very clear that the children of the
eldest son of a peer can frequently end up with a courtesy title.

This really only leaves the question of how the children of the younger
son of a duke or marquess are styled. The younger son will be styled
"Lord", but does that mean his children get the style "The Hon."? If I
had to guess I'd say no, but it's not clear what principle if any we
should be applying. Amongst the aristocracy (as opposed to, say, Law
Lords or Lord Mayors), I can think of no other circumstances in which
the children of someone using the style Lord (whether by courtesy or
otherwise) would not be styled "The Hon" or higher.

I cannot see any source addressing this question in the general case, so
the next best thing is to look for a definitive reference on a specific
case. Within the descendants of Edward VII, I can only find one set of
examples: the three sons of Lord Nicholas Windsor, who is a younger son
of the Duke of Kent. But so far as I can see, they have never appeared
in the Court Circular and I don't think Buckingham Palace ever announced
their births. They're listed in line of succession given in Whitaker's
Almanack as "The Hon. Albert Windsor", and they appear in Debrett's line
of succession without "The Hon.", but as noted above, I wouldn't
necessarily trust either of these sources.

Richard
Peter Howarth
2018-06-15 06:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Let us go back to basic principles. Royalty only extends to
grandchildren of the sovereign; after that they become 'non-royals'.
Peerages of the United Kingdom, unlike those of some other countries,
extend only to the actual holder of the title, so peers' children are
all commoners, including the eldest son before he inherits the title.
Agreed. But we're talking about courtesy titles here, and they're
titles borne by commoners.
Journalists don't have time to look things up properly or to think
things through logically, and so regularly get titles wrong.
Where do you expect journalists to look it up? I've tried quite a few
of the obvious sources, and very few of them address the issue of
grandchildren of peers, other than the heir apparent of the heir
apparent who would normally get a secondary courtesy title, if one is
available.
If you look instead for example in the common reference works, you often
find errors in them, frequently due to them not being properly updated
when the holder of the substantive title dies.
Debrett's, which is generally well-regarded (perhaps more than it really
deserves), is a good example of that. Look up Princess Margaret's
granddaughter, Margarita Armstrong-Jones. As the daughter of an earl
(and not just one by courtesy) she unquestionably gets the title "Lady",
but Debrett's labels her "The Hon." instead.
Any recent changes to the use of courtesy titles will have been made
under an Earl Marshal's warrant or (less likely) letters patent, but
these are almost impossible to locate. In any case, most of these
styles has not been formally defined and is simply a matter of custom.
We should not be misled by their mistakes. Instead, apply the principles
above: peerages apply only to the holder of the title, and courtesy
titles, if applied, only last for one generation.
Except that's definitely not true as there are some very clear cases
when grandsons gain a courtesy title. Lord Culloden (the eldest son of
the eldest son of the Duke of Gloucester) and Lord Downpatrick (the
eldest son of the eldest son of the Duke of Kent) are examples.
It's also pretty clear that the daughters of an earl by courtesy are all
styled Lady, just as they would be for a substantive earl. For example,
Lord Downpatrick's sister is consistently styled Lady Marina Windsor
when she appears in the daily Court Circular released by Buckingham
Palace. I think repeated use in the Court Circular can be considered to
make the usage correct by precedence, regardless of what rules may exist
on the subject.
Similarly, children of viscounts by courtesy are styled Hon. An example
is the Princess Margaret's grandson, the current Viscount Linley.
Before the death of his grandfather, the first Earl of Snowdon, he was
consistently styled The Hon. Charles Armstrong-Jones in the Court
Circular, just as he would have been if his father was a proper viscount
rather than one by courtesy.
I think these examples make it very clear that the children of the
eldest son of a peer can frequently end up with a courtesy title.
This really only leaves the question of how the children of the younger
son of a duke or marquess are styled. The younger son will be styled
"Lord", but does that mean his children get the style "The Hon."? If I
had to guess I'd say no, but it's not clear what principle if any we
should be applying. Amongst the aristocracy (as opposed to, say, Law
Lords or Lord Mayors), I can think of no other circumstances in which
the children of someone using the style Lord (whether by courtesy or
otherwise) would not be styled "The Hon" or higher.
I cannot see any source addressing this question in the general case, so
the next best thing is to look for a definitive reference on a specific
case. Within the descendants of Edward VII, I can only find one set of
examples: the three sons of Lord Nicholas Windsor, who is a younger son
of the Duke of Kent. But so far as I can see, they have never appeared
in the Court Circular and I don't think Buckingham Palace ever announced
their births. They're listed in line of succession given in Whitaker's
Almanack as "The Hon. Albert Windsor", and they appear in Debrett's line
of succession without "The Hon.", but as noted above, I wouldn't
necessarily trust either of these sources.
Richard
I agree that reference books on titles are often unhelpful for journalists, and I was trying to be sympathetic to the situation that they find themselves in. Nonetheless, mistakes are made. And perhaps the mistakes in the reference books are because they too do not understand the principles.

So let us look at the principles behind the examples you have quoted. The eldest son of the eldest son of a duke may well be given a courtesy title. But it is not because his father has the courtesy title of a marquess or earl. He is not a peer (yet) and cannot grant a courtesy title to someone else. The grandson has the courtesy title because his grandfather, who is a peer, has another spare title to lend him.

We hope that the eldest son will in due course become the duke. When that happens, his daughters and younger sons will then normally be given the courtesy titles of Lady Mary and Lord John. Should we insist that they wait until their grandfather's death before using these courtesy titles? Perhaps so, but out of 'courtesy' it seems reasonable to anticipate that situation. However, they remain courtesy titles and cannot be insisted on.

In the end, I think we probably come to the same conclusions.

Peter Howarth

Richard Smith
2018-06-12 17:25:08 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Richard Smith
So why was the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester almost invariably called
Princess Alice after her husband's death?
Because in traditional British practice, the fact you're called a
Princess does not automatically make you a Princess. Which makes roughly
half of the people the British call "Princess" not Princesses.
I'm not talking about what the British public thought she should be
called. She was referred to as Prince Alice in the court circular too,
and one would hope they knew what they were talking about. However the
answer appears to be the Queen specifically granted her permission to
use that style. The similar situation with Princess Marina, the Dowager
Duchess of Kent, is more complicated as she was a Princess of Greece and
Denmark in her own right.

Richard
a***@gmail.com
2018-06-13 04:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Princess consort she is not:

"Since her marriage to Prince Harry, Meghan is a princess of the United Kingdom entitled to the style of Royal Highness, as well as the titles of Duchess of Sussex, Countess of Dumbarton and Baroness Kilkeel.[109][110] She is styled as "Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Sussex",[111] and she is the first person to hold that title.[112]"
Derek Howard
2018-06-14 10:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Smith
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Richard Smith
So why was the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester almost invariably called
Princess Alice after her husband's death?
Because in traditional British practice, the fact you're called a
Princess does not automatically make you a Princess. Which makes roughly
half of the people the British call "Princess" not Princesses.
I'm not talking about what the British public thought she should be
called. She was referred to as Prince Alice in the court circular too,
and one would hope they knew what they were talking about. However the
answer appears to be the Queen specifically granted her permission to
use that style. The similar situation with Princess Marina, the Dowager
Duchess of Kent, is more complicated as she was a Princess of Greece and
Denmark in her own right.
Richard
It seems Alice Duchess of Gloucester was first accredited with the title of Princess in Feb 1975 when HMQ appointed her Colonel-in-Chief, Royal Corps of Transport. If HMQ were to ever uses the style for Meghan that would be definitive.

Derek Howard
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