Armigerous Ancestor

[Justin Luddington]

Hi all,

Through much effort and research, my brother and I are fairly confident that we are descended patrilineally (and provably) from an armigerous forbear.

We are considering applying for a registration of these arms, but are a bit puzzled about the process, cost, etc. I naturally thought that you guys would be best placed to provide some insight!

Firstly, the reason we think that our great (many times) grandfather was an armiger is that he was recorded as such in the 1568 London Heraldric Visitation. Specifically, he was listed as entitled to bear the arms “Paly of six argent and gules, on a chief gules a lion passant guardant argent”. Is such a Heraldric Visitation entry sufficient proof for the College of Arms?

Secondly, the descent is not strictly eldest son to eldest son—between us and him there are a few generations where our forebear is a younger son. What effect (if any) does this have on our entitlement to the arms? Will the College insist on a difference? It would be a nightmare to attempt to go back and record all of the “brisures” that would apply, and I’ve read conflicting reports about whether these are, in practice, insisted on.

Finally, would we be best to start our correspondence with the CoA? While our ancestor was English, our family has been Canadian since the American Revolution. Would the CHA recognize our right, or would we have to apply for a new grant? Would it maybe be better to seek a registration with the CoA in the first instance and then simply have it registered with the CHA? Or should I start with the CHA in the first instance?

Any insight you knowledgable folks can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Justin Luddington

[StephenP]

Justin

In English heraldry the Arms pass to all legitimate male descendants of the original Armiger. Furthermore, English heraldry tends to ignore marks of cadency. However, if you should wish to apply one to show that you are not claiming to be the “senior” line I doubt anyone would object.

I suspect the cheapest option would be to start with the CHA.

Yours aye

Stephen

[Justin Luddington]

Post by Justin Luddington
Justin
In English heraldry the Arms pass to all legitimate male descendants of the original Armiger. Furthermore, English heraldry tends to ignore marks of cadency. However, if you should wish to apply one to show that you are not claiming to be the �senior� line I doubt anyone would object.
I suspect the cheapest option would be to start with the CHA.
Yours aye
Stephen

That's great, Stephen, thank you very much!

Will the CHA accept the Visitation as sufficient proof, of a pre-existing grant, then? I remember reading that they want a copy of the original grant for a registration, which of course in our case is unlikely to be found.

Our concern is that we don't want to have to apply for a new grant—we want the original arms, if at all possible, in order to preserve the historic link with our fathers.

Regards,

Justin

[StephenP]

Justin

I'm afraid I am not too familiar with the inner workings of the CHA. However, I am sure it will not hurt to ask. I know from experience that Darryl E. Kennedy, Assiniboine Herald, is most helpful and approachable.

Yours aye

Stephen

www.heraldry-online.org.uk

[Justin Luddington]

Okay, I’ve written to the CHA. Here’s hoping! I’m unreasonably excited at the prospect of having an official registration of arms that are more than 400 years old. Thanks for your guidance, Stephen.

Justin

Post by Justin Luddington
Justin
I'm afraid I am not too familiar with the inner workings of the CHA. However, I am sure it will not hurt to ask. I know from experience that Darryl E. Kennedy, Assiniboine Herald, is most helpful and approachable.
Yours aye
Stephen
www.heraldry-online.org.uk

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Justin Luddington
Okay, I’ve written to the CHA. Here’s hoping! I’m unreasonably excited
at the prospect of having an official registration of arms that are
more than 400 years old. Thanks for your guidance, Stephen.

This is, of course a registration that is official within the CHA game
of arms.

If you wish to have a registration within the CoA game of arms, expect
to pay a handsome fee:

They will start with the London visitation entry as pure fact as the
Visitations were crown commissions and can be produced as
incontrovertible evidence (even if false?) in a court of law. You do
not need any grant. But they will wish to dig out the original copy
that they have (hopefully) of that visitation; note that the version
published by the Harleian Society in 1869 is not from the original
document.

You will then have to prove your male line descent from the armiger.
This will involve getting certified copies of wills, parish registers,
birth and marriage certificates, other legal documents, all to establish
the relationship of each generation to the preceding one. (A couple of
capons will no longer do!)

A distant cousin of mine did this sort of thing with the Lyon King of
Arms in 1997 and got them to issue a document certifying his right and
illustrating his arms through descent from an armigerous chap who died
in Scotland in c.1558. So it can be done and I was most impressed that
he achieved it.

[Justin Luddington]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
If you wish to have a registration within the CoA game of arms, expect
to pay a handsome fee

Do you know about how much it would be? Luckily my brother and father are in on this with me!

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
They will start with the London visitation entry as pure fact as the
Visitations were crown commissions and can be produced as
incontrovertible evidence (even if false?) in a court of law. You do
not need any grant. But they will wish to dig out the original copy
that they have (hopefully) of that visitation; note that the version
published by the Harleian Society in 1869 is not from the original
document.

That’s encouraging. Otherwise it likely would have been a dead end for me.

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
You will then have to prove your male line descent from the armiger.
This will involve getting certified copies of wills, parish registers,
birth and marriage certificates, other legal documents, all to establish
the relationship of each generation to the preceding one. (A couple of
capons will no longer do!)

How would I go about getting these? I suppose just write to the appropriate parishes, etc.? Or is there now a central archive of some sort?

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
A distant cousin of mine did this sort of thing with the Lyon King of
Arms in 1997 and got them to issue a document certifying his right and
illustrating his arms through descent from an armigerous chap who died
in Scotland in c.1558. So it can be done and I was most impressed that
he achieved it.

So it can be done! Very encouraging. Thank you!

Justin

[Odysseus]

In article <ktmvsl$odq$***@dont-email.me>,
Justin Luddington <***@me.com> wrote:

[CHA registration]

Post by Justin Luddington
Do you know about how much it would be? Luckily my brother and father are in
on this with me!

Most of the cost is for the artwork. The CHA quotes a processing fee of
$435, and estimates a design and preliminary artwork at $325-$1200,
depending on complexity. (Does the visitation document describe a crest
as well as the CoA? If not, you'll probably want to design one -- maybe
an opportunity to introduce some Canadian or personal symbolism. You
might also consider such 'extras' as a badge, a flag, differenced
versions for children, &c.) Then they offer two options for the grant
itself: a 'standard' large-format patent document, with all painting and
calligraphy done by hand, for $2225-3500, or a two-part 'economy'
version comprising a certificate-style emblazonment accompanied by a
printed grant document, for $875-2000. So the total can be anywhere from
$1600 to $6000 or more. Since you have a fairly simple, 'old-fashioned'
blazon already in mind, and with the assumption that the heralds approve
it more or less as-is, your artwork charges would probably be on the
lower side.

See <http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=79> .

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Justin Luddington

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
If you wish to have a registration within the CoA game of arms,
expect to pay a handsome fee

Do you know about how much it would be? Luckily my brother and father
are in on this with me!

Have a look at the College's site at
<http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/proving-a-right-to-arms>.
If you get them to do the research for you, my guess is it will cost a
humungeous amount, thousands. My recommendation is that you do the
genealogical research yourself and only approach the College when you
wish to prove your claim to them, much cheaper. Though you may find it
useful to ask them to make you a copy of the visitation record, as only
they can provide that; that might cost you anything from one to several
hundred ukp.

Post by Justin Luddington

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
They will start with the London visitation entry as pure fact as the
Visitations were crown commissions and can be produced as
incontrovertible evidence (even if false?) in a court of law. You
do not need any grant. But they will wish to dig out the original
copy that they have (hopefully) of that visitation; note that the
version published by the Harleian Society in 1869 is not from the
original document.

That’s encouraging. Otherwise it likely would have been a dead end for me.

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
You will then have to prove your male line descent from the armiger.
This will involve getting certified copies of wills, parish
registers, birth and marriage certificates, other legal documents,
all to establish the relationship of each generation to the
preceding one. (A couple of capons will no longer do!)

How would I go about getting these? I suppose just write to the
appropriate parishes, etc.? Or is there now a central archive of some
sort?

The parish registers are not held at the parish these days; if they have
survived they are mostly at the county record offices. Various
genealogical web sites have indexes to the parish records but eventually
you will have to get the Archivist at each holding Record Office to
provide you with a certified copy.

However it sounds as if you have not already done this, so you may be in
for a shock in trying to obtain appropriate records. You will not be
able to rely on published pedigrees as they do not contain evidence; the
only exception to this rule on pedigrees is a certified copy of the
original of a visitation record.

If you are looking for a model for establishing a claim of descent, have
a look at claims to accede to a peerage; the supporting documentation
was usually published and shows how such a claim can be made in a court
of law. Unfortunately the heraldic booksellers 'Heraldry Today' has
closed down as they had a few of these books. But there seems to be a
good collection at the Institute of Historical Research in London
<http://www.history.ac.uk/library/collections/peerage>.

As you are now into genealogical research, you may find better help on
the newsgroup <soc.genealogy.britain> where some of the participants are
extremely helpful in locating documents. You must start your research
with yourself and find some official documents to verify that you are
the legitimate son of your father, such as your birth certificate and
your parents marriage certificate. Then you go back through each
generation in turn and if you cannot find suitable documents for any
generation, ask on that newsgroup.

[Justin Luddington]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
My recommendation is that you do the
genealogical research yourself and only approach the College when you
wish to prove your claim to them, much cheaper.

That's the plan. I've already begun assembling everything.

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
The parish registers are not held at the parish these days; if they have
survived they are mostly at the county record offices. …
However it sounds as if you have not already done this, so you may be in
for a shock in trying to obtain appropriate records. You will not be
able to rely on published pedigrees as they do not contain evidence; the
only exception to this rule on pedigrees is a certified copy of the
original of a visitation record.

Thankfully, I only have three generations to document in 16th century
Britain. Thereafter my forefather emigrated to the U.S. (in about
1632), and his descendants were UELs to Nova Scotia in the late 1700s.
From 1632 to the present the work has largely been done and should be
comparatively simple to document.

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
If you are looking for a model for establishing a claim of descent, have
a look at claims to accede to a peerage; the supporting documentation
was usually published and shows how such a claim can be made in a court
of law.

Thank you, that is very helpful!

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
As you are now into genealogical research, you may find better help on
the newsgroup <soc.genealogy.britain> where some of the participants are
extremely helpful in locating documents. You must start your research
with yourself and find some official documents to verify that you are
the legitimate son of your father, such as your birth certificate and
your parents marriage certificate. Then you go back through each
generation in turn and if you cannot find suitable documents for any
generation, ask on that newsgroup.

Excellent. Thank you for the guidance!

--
Justin Luddington

[The Chief]

I think it is worth pointing out that if you are a legitimate descendant, then your right to use the original arms DOES NOT in any way require registration or certification with anyone. You simply use the arms.

Regards,
The Chief

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by The Chief
I think it is worth pointing out that if you are a legitimate
descendant, then your right to use the original arms DOES NOT in any
way require registration or certification with anyone. You simply use
the arms.

Totally right. Even, there is nothing to stop you inventing your own
unique arms and displaying those. But what we were discussing was
playing the games of arms within the rules of (a) CHA or (b) the College
of Arms.

[The Chief]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by The Chief
I think it is worth pointing out that if you are a legitimate
descendant, then your right to use the original arms DOES NOT in any
way require registration or certification with anyone. You simply use
the arms.

Totally right. Even, there is nothing to stop you inventing your own
unique arms and displaying those. But what we were discussing was
playing the games of arms within the rules of (a) CHA or (b) the College
of Arms.
--
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Indeed. Regarding the COA though, while they do their best to foment the opinion that their certification is required in cases like this, have they ever actually officially denied the right of descendants to simply use what is their legal arms?
Regards,
The Chief

[w***@hotmail.com]

'Fraid I have to agree with The Chief here. The very Letters Patent that (presumably) granted the Arms would have allowed for them to be borne by the agnatic, male-line descendants of the original armiger anyway. If you can prove that, it's your inalienable right.

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

On 12 Aug at 7:11, The Chief <***@ymail.com> wrote:

<snip for brevity>

Post by The Chief
Indeed. Regarding the COA though, while they do their best to foment
the opinion that their certification is required in cases like this,
have they ever actually officially denied the right of descendants to
simply use what is their legal arms?

Not to my knowledge. The Lyon King would like every Scots armiger at
every generation to matriulate their arms but the CoA has never required
this (within the rules of their game).

But what makes sense is to register a pedigree every couple of
generations with the CoA. This used not to be expensive: my father was
once quoted £100 odd to bring things up to date, though he thought
better of that raid on his pocket!

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Not to my knowledge. The Lyon King would like every Scots armiger at
every generation to matriulate their arms
Tim Powys-Lybbe

I don't think that is very fair on Lord Lyon. Sir Thomas Innes of Learney in Scots Heraldry said, "Nowadays, even the successive heirs to the principal or undifferenced coat of arms usually rematriculate after a few generations, or bring up to date a pedigree in the Public Register of Genealogies, both for the purpose of putting on record the intervening pedigree since the last registration" (1956 Edn p 109).

As someone who has deduced a pedigree from before 1672 (the date of the Lyon Register Act), I can attest that it would have been very helpful if my friend's ancestors had recorded the pedigree as it developed!

[Justin Luddington]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by The Chief
I think it is worth pointing out that if you are a legitimate
descendant, then your right to use the original arms DOES NOT in any
way require registration or certification with anyone. You simply use
the arms.

Totally right. Even, there is nothing to stop you inventing your own
unique arms and displaying those. But what we were discussing was
playing the games of arms within the rules of (a) CHA or (b) the College
of Arms.

Precisely. The reason this is so fascinating and compelling is the
historical link to my distant ancestors. Somehow it wouldn't feel right
if I didn't go through the "proper" channels.

--
Justin Luddington

[w***@hotmail.com]

But the point is you don't need to go to the College of Arms: the Arms of a lineal male-line descendant of an armiger in a legitimate line are as much your property as if you were the person originally granted the Arms.

[The Chief]

Post by w***@hotmail.com
But the point is you don't need to go to the College of Arms: the Arms of a lineal male-line descendant of an armiger in a legitimate line are as much your property as if you were the person originally granted the Arms.

Precisely!

Regards,
The Chief

[The Chief]

Post by Justin Luddington

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe

Post by The Chief
I think it is worth pointing out that if you are a legitimate
descendant, then your right to use the original arms DOES NOT in any
way require registration or certification with anyone. You simply use
the arms.

Totally right. Even, there is nothing to stop you inventing your own
unique arms and displaying those. But what we were discussing was
playing the games of arms within the rules of (a) CHA or (b) the College
of Arms.

Precisely. The reason this is so fascinating and compelling is the
historical link to my distant ancestors. Somehow it wouldn't feel right
if I didn't go through the "proper" channels.
--
Justin Luddington

The point you seem to be missing is that it is **entirely** proper for you to simply use the arms, if you are a legitimate heir. Now, you may decide that you want to establish or update a registered pedigree at the COA, but that is NOT a requirement, it is a voluntary choice.

Regards,
The Chief

[w***@hotmail.com]

Agreed.