Discussion:
Coat of Arms of 1st Duke of Northumberland, KG PC (c. 1714 - June 6, 1786) and his descendants
(too old to reply)
Nicolai
2007-10-03 07:49:06 UTC
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I just realized that I had posted this in the wrong section,
because I didn't know this Forum existed.

Please help me with this question.

Dear Forum Members,
I need your help with this.
Hugh Percy, 1st Duke of Northumberland, KG PC (c. 1714 - June 6, 1786)
was the son of Langdale Smithson.

The Duke was born with the name Hugh Smithson but changed the family
surname to Percy when he married Elizabeth Seymour, daughter of
Algernon Seymour, 7th Duke of Somerset, on 16 July 1740. She was
Baroness Percy in her own right, and indirect heiress of the Percy
family, which was one of the leading landowning families of England,
and had previously held the Earldom of Northumberland for several
centuries. They had two children:

* Hugh Percy, 2nd Duke of Northumberland (1742-1817)
* Algernon Percy, 1st Earl of Beverley (1750-1830)
Which Coat of Arms was continued
the Percy or the Smithson Coat of Arms.

This is the son of Hugh Percy, 2nd Duke of Northumberland (1742-1817)
Smithson was born James Lewis (or Louis) Macie, the son of Elizabeth
Macie and Hugh Smithson, Duke of Northumberland.

For James Smithson ---which Coat of Arms was he - or would he be able
to wear!

I am hoping for a picture of the Coat of Arms.

Thank you for your help!

With my best regards,
Nicolai
Turenne
2007-10-03 15:22:43 UTC
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Nicolai,

Click on this link and scroll down for an image of the 1st Duke's
arms:

http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Richard
Turenne
2007-10-03 15:36:40 UTC
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A brief, (and I hope correct) explanation of the Percy quarterings:

Maud de Lucy (d.1398), married Henry de Percy. As a result of the
marriage agreement, the Percy Coat of Arms (or, a lion rampant azure)
were quartered with the Lucy Coat of Arms,(gules, three luces argent),
with the agreement that "the honour of Cockermouth, and the arms of
Lucy" would pass to her stepson, Henry Percy, who became know as
'Hotspur".

Richard
Anton Sherwood
2007-10-19 05:51:33 UTC
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Post by Turenne
Click on this link and scroll down for an image of the 1st Duke's
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm
You click it -- that's the address of the framing page; we need the
content frame. How did you find the duke? I tried the "Index des
personnes" and it misdirected me to a list of Prime Ministers.
--
Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
"How'd ya like to climb this high *without* no mountain?" --Porky Pine
Anton Sherwood
2007-10-19 05:55:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Click on this link and scroll down for an image of the 1st Duke's
Or, better yet, this one:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Regions/Iles_Britanniques/Percy_3.htm
--
Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
"How'd ya like to climb this high *without* no mountain?" --Porky Pine
Turenne
2007-10-19 10:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Anton,

It's sometimes difficult to navigate. I went for Knights of the
Garter.

Cheers

Richard
Francois R. Velde
2007-10-03 15:51:37 UTC
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Post by Nicolai
I just realized that I had posted this in the wrong section,
because I didn't know this Forum existed.
Please help me with this question.
Dear Forum Members,
I need your help with this.
Hugh Percy, 1st Duke of Northumberland, KG PC (c. 1714 - June 6, 1786)
was the son of Langdale Smithson.
The Duke was born with the name Hugh Smithson but changed the family
surname to Percy when he married Elizabeth Seymour, daughter of
Algernon Seymour, 7th Duke of Somerset, on 16 July 1740. She was
Baroness Percy in her own right, and indirect heiress of the Percy
family, which was one of the leading landowning families of England,
and had previously held the Earldom of Northumberland for several
* Hugh Percy, 2nd Duke of Northumberland (1742-1817)
* Algernon Percy, 1st Earl of Beverley (1750-1830)
Which Coat of Arms was continued
the Percy or the Smithson Coat of Arms.
This is the son of Hugh Percy, 2nd Duke of Northumberland (1742-1817)
Smithson was born James Lewis (or Louis) Macie, the son of Elizabeth
Macie and Hugh Smithson, Duke of Northumberland.
For James Smithson ---which Coat of Arms was he - or would he be able
to wear!
Sir Hugh Smithson's arms were changed by a private act of Parliament in
(23 Geo. 2 c. 14; royal assent of Apr 12, 1750), entitled "An Act to enable
the Right Honourable Hugh, Earl of Northumberland, and Elizabeth, Countess of
Northumberland, and Baroness Percy, his wife, and their children, progeny, and
issue, to take and use the name of Percy; and bear and quarter the arms of the
Percys, Earls of Northumberland".

In that act it is recited (Arthur Collins: The Peerage of England, 1779,
vol. 2 p. 485)
"that on the marriage of the most noble Charles, Duke of Somerset, with the
most noble Elizabeth, Duchess of Somerset, who was the sole daughter and heir
of the Right Honourable Joscelyne Percy, Earl of Northumberland, and Baron Percy
(and which said marriage was had and solemnized in the minority of both the said
Duke and Duchess) it was stipulated, and agreed, that for the preservation of the
noble family, and name of the Percys, he, the said Duke, and all, and every
the issue of his body, on her the said Duchess begotten, should, for ever,
take upon him, and them, and be called, and named, only by the name and
surname of Percy. But that the said Duchess, under her hand and seal, Jan.
30, 1687, having then attained her age of twenty-one years, did consent and
agree to wave and dispense with the said agreement, so entered into upon her
marriage, for the said Duke, and the issue of that marriage, to take the
name and surname of Percy, as aforesaid.

And as Algernon, late duke of Somerset, did, in his life-time, express his
desire, that the name of Percy should be used, and be the surname, and family
name of the Earls of Northumberland, for the time being; in regard the said
honour and dignity had been held and enjoyed by persons of that name, for many
generations; Sir Hugh Smithson, now Earl of Northumberland, and Lady
Elizabeth his wife, Countess of Northumberland, and Baroness Percy; as
well out of their great regard to, and in compliance with the
desire of the said late Duke, as for preserving the noble and ancient
family, and name of Percy, are willing and desirous, that the said name
of Percy, and the coats of arms borne and quartered by the Percys Earls
of Northumberland, should be established and confirmed, in, unto, and upon
them, and their progeny and issue, by authority of Parliament. Wherefore
it was enacted, &c."

He was created Earl Percy and Duke of Northumberland by patent of
Oct. 18, 1766.

The full text of private acts are not in the Statutes at Large, so I
do not know what the act says about the arms.

The arms given by Collins (p. 488) are: quarterly 1 and 4, 1. Or a lion
rampant azure, being the armorial bearing of the ancient dukes of Brabant,
and 2. Gules three lucies, or pykes, for Lucy; 2 and 3, azure five fusils
in fess, or, for Percy.
<Loading Image...>)
The same arms appear in the earlier 4th edition (1768; vol. 5, p. 498).

However, in the same author's "History of the ancient and illustrious
family of the Percys, Barons Percy, and Earls of Northumberland" (London,
1750) which also cites the preamble of the Act, the arms are given (p. 176)
as Quarterly 1 and 4, azure five fusils in fess or (Percy), 2 and 3 or a
lion rampant azure (Brabant). He gives the same arms in his Supplement
to the 3d edition of his peerage (London, 1750; vol 2, p. 803).

Other sources differ:

Nathaniel Salmon: A short view of the families of the present English
nobility. London, 1758. (p. 159).
Quarterly 1 and 4, azure five fusils in fess or (Percy), 2 and 3 or a
lion rampant azure (Brabant).

Francis Nichols: The British Compendium. London, 1761. (vol 3, p. 121).
(same arms)

Richard Griffith: An extract of the history and genealogy of the noble
families of the Earl and Countess of Northumberland. Dublin, 1764. p. 59.
(same arms)

Edward Kimber: The peerage of England. London, 1769. (p. 36)
(same arms)

Hugh Clark: The peerage of the nobility of England, Scotland, and Ireland.
London, 1779. (p. 14)
Quarterly 1 and 4 or a lion rampant azure (Brabant), 2 and 3 azure five
fusils in fess or (Percy).

Joseph Edmondson: The Present Peerage. London, 1785. (plate 5).
(the plate shows 1 and 4 Brabant, 2 and 3 Percy: see
<Loading Image...>)

Longmate, Barak: The pocket peerage of England, Scotland, & Ireland.
London, 1788, vol. 1, plate 7.
(same arms)

Debrett assigns to the present 12th duke (descended from Hugh Smithson's
second son Algernon) the following arms:

Quarterly: 1st and 4th grand quarters, 1st and 4th counterquartered 1st
and 4th or, a lion rampant azure; 2nd and 3rd gules, three lucies hauriant
argent, Lucy; 2nd and 3rd azure, five fusils conjoined in fesse or, Percy;
2nd and 3rd grand quarters quarterly 1st and 4th or, three bars wavy gules,
Drummond; 2nd and 3rd or, a lion's head erased within a double treasure
flory counterflory gules, Drummond, coat of augmentation.

<Loading Image...>)
--
François R. Velde
***@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Nicolai
2007-10-03 17:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Dear Francois and Richard,

Thank you very much for your kind help and detailed explanations.

With my best regards,
N.
Derek Howard
2007-10-19 12:42:11 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 3, 5:51 pm, "Francois R. Velde"
Post by Francois R. Velde
Sir Hugh Smithson's arms were changed by a private act of Parliament in
(23 Geo. 2 c. 14; royal assent of Apr 12, 1750), entitled "An Act to enable
the Right Honourable Hugh, Earl of Northumberland, and Elizabeth, Countess of
Northumberland, and Baroness Percy, his wife, and their children, progeny, and
issue, to take and use the name of Percy; and bear and quarter the arms of the
Percys, Earls of Northumberland".
<snip>
Post by Francois R. Velde
And as Algernon, late duke of Somerset, did, in his life-time, express his
desire, that the name of Percy should be used, and be the surname, and family
name of the Earls of Northumberland, for the time being; in regard the said
honour and dignity had been held and enjoyed by persons of that name, for many
generations; Sir Hugh Smithson, now Earl of Northumberland, and Lady
Elizabeth his wife, Countess of Northumberland, and Baroness Percy; as
well out of their great regard to, and in compliance with the
desire of the said late Duke, as for preserving the noble and ancient
family, and name of Percy, are willing and desirous, that the said name
of Percy, and the coats of arms borne and quartered by the Percys Earls
of Northumberland, should be established and confirmed, in, unto, and upon
them, and their progeny and issue, by authority of Parliament. Wherefore
it was enacted, &c."
He was created Earl Percy and Duke of Northumberland by patent of
Oct. 18, 1766.
The full text of private acts are not in the Statutes at Large, so I
do not know what the act says about the arms.
The arms given by Collins (p. 488) are: quarterly 1 and 4, 1. Or a lion
rampant azure, being the armorial bearing of the ancient dukes of Brabant,
and 2. Gules three lucies, or pykes, for Lucy; 2 and 3, azure five fusils
in fess, or, for Percy.
<http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/pics/Northumberland2.jpg>)
The same arms appear in the earlier 4th edition (1768; vol. 5, p. 498).
However, in the same author's "History of the ancient and illustrious
family of the Percys, Barons Percy, and Earls of Northumberland" (London,
1750) which also cites the preamble of the Act, the arms are given (p. 176)
as Quarterly 1 and 4, azure five fusils in fess or (Percy), 2 and 3 or a
lion rampant azure (Brabant). He gives the same arms in his Supplement
to the 3d edition of his peerage (London, 1750; vol 2, p. 803).
Nathaniel Salmon: A short view of the families of the present English
nobility. London, 1758. (p. 159).
Quarterly 1 and 4, azure five fusils in fess or (Percy), 2 and 3 or a
lion rampant azure (Brabant).
Francis Nichols: The British Compendium. London, 1761. (vol 3, p. 121).
(same arms)
Richard Griffith: An extract of the history and genealogy of the noble
families of the Earl and Countess of Northumberland. Dublin, 1764. p. 59.
(same arms)
Edward Kimber: The peerage of England. London, 1769. (p. 36)
(same arms)
Hugh Clark: The peerage of the nobility of England, Scotland, and Ireland.
London, 1779. (p. 14)
Quarterly 1 and 4 or a lion rampant azure (Brabant), 2 and 3 azure five
fusils in fess or (Percy).
Joseph Edmondson: The Present Peerage. London, 1785. (plate 5).
(the plate shows 1 and 4 Brabant, 2 and 3 Percy: see
<http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/pics/Northumberland.jpg>)
- Show quoted text -
Just to add that Edmondson: A Complete Body of Heraldry, 1780,
indicates that the Duke's arms were changed by patent of 22 Oct 1766
(only four days after the 18 Oct 1766 patent by which he was created
Duke of Northumberland and Earl Percy). I am not clear on the exact
changes, however, Grantees of Arms 1687-1898, ed Rylands, 1917, 287,
shows Hugh, Earl of Northumberland having a grant of arms and
supporters in probably 1757, probably following on from his KG
[College of Arms, Grants, v X, f 85]; and another grant of supporters
in 1766 [College of Arms, Grants, v XI, f 173]. It may be that this
opportunity was taken for displaying the quarterings differently.
Edmondson says the shield in 1780 was 1st and 4th grand quarters,
quarterly 1 & 4 Brabant/Louvain, 2 & 3 Lucy, 2nd & 3rd grand quarters
Percy. The supporters were: dexter, a lion azure, sinister, a lion
rampant gardant or, ducally crowned of the last gorged with a collar
gobony argent and azure.

Derek Howard

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