Discussion:
Jurisdiction of the Lord Lyon
(too old to reply)
Graham Milne
2012-08-06 15:22:12 UTC
Permalink
Anyone care to comment on the following statement? The Acts are at:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/lyondocs.htm

With regard to the power of earls and lords of regality to grant arms, it would be nonsensical if an earl could nobilitate (e.g. make a baron) but not grant the marks of nobility (i.e. arms) at the same time. Since arms are the means by which nobility is distinguished it follows that a right to nobilitate must necessarily imply a right to grant arms. A careful reading of the Acts of Parliament of 1592 and 1672 establishing the powers and duties of the Lord Lyon reveals that the 1592 Act conferred the power to visit (i.e. examine) the arms of noblemen, barons and gentlemen, to distinguish (i.e. to grant marks of difference to cadet branches) and to matriculate (i.e. record) arms, to inhibit common sort of people from bearing arms and to impose penalties on those who contravene the Act. There is nothing here that prevents an earl or lord of regality from exercising an existing right to grant arms or which says that arms already granted by such people before that date were not valid. The 1672 Act provides that everyone who uses arms should submit an account of their arms with evidence confirming their right to the arms, gives the Lord Lyon the power to grant arms to virtuous and well-deserving people (but this does not necessarily exclude others from doing the same), to furnish extracts of registered arms and to impose or remit penalties for the unauthorised use of arms (but this does not means that arms authorised by others are unlawful). The Act also says that the Lyon's register will be the true and unrepealable rule of all arms and bearings in Scotland but this does not of itself prevent arms granted otherwise than by the Lord Lyon from being recorded in the register. In other words, there is nothing in either of these Acts which gives the Lord Lyon the exclusive right to grant arms or which deprives those who had that right from exercising it in the future. It is true that Sir Thomas Innes of Learney in his 'Scots Heraldry' (2nd ed., p. 83) quotes the case of Macdonell v Macdonald (1826) to the effect that 'a person cannot create arms unto himself' in support of his assertion that the 'the granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative committed to the Kings of Arms' but these words do not exclude an earl or lord of regality from granting arms. Note that even today some nobles still appoint their own pursuivants, such as the Finlaggan Pursuivant to the Baron Macdonald of Sleat, the Slains Pursuivant to the Earl of Erroll, the Garioch Pursuivant to the Countess of Mar and the Endure Pursuivant to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, although these pursuivants do not grant arms.
gregs talkin
2012-08-07 19:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Milne
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/lyondocs.htm
With regard to the power of earls and lords of regality to grant arms, it would be nonsensical if an earl could nobilitate (e.g. make a baron) but not grant the marks of nobility (i.e. arms) at the same time. Since arms are the means by which nobility is distinguished it follows that a right to nobilitate must necessarily imply a right to grant arms. A careful reading of the Acts of Parliament of 1592 and 1672 establishing the powers and duties of the Lord Lyon reveals that the 1592 Act conferred the power to visit (i.e. examine) the arms of noblemen, barons and gentlemen, to distinguish (i.e. to grant marks of difference to cadet branches) and to matriculate (i.e. record) arms, to inhibit common sort of people from bearing arms and to impose penalties on those who contravene the Act. There is nothing here that prevents an earl or lord of regality from exercising an existing right to grant arms or which says that arms already granted by such people before that date were not valid. The 1672 Act provides that everyone who uses arms should submit an account of their arms with evidence confirming their right to the arms, gives the Lord Lyon the power to grant arms to virtuous and well-deserving people (but this does not necessarily exclude others from doing the same), to furnish extracts of registered arms and to impose or remit penalties for the unauthorised use of arms (but this does not means that arms authorised by others are unlawful). The Act also says that the Lyon's register will be the true and unrepealable rule of all arms and bearings in Scotland but this does not of itself prevent arms granted otherwise than by the Lord Lyon from being recorded in the register. In other words, there is nothing in either of these Acts which gives the Lord Lyon the exclusive right to grant arms or which deprives those who had that right from exercising it in the future. It is true that Sir Thomas Innes of Learney in his 'Scots Heraldry' (2nd ed., p. 83) quotes the case of Macdonell v Macdonald (1826) to the effect that 'a person cannot create arms unto himself' in support of his assertion that the 'the granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative committed to the Kings of Arms' but these words do not exclude an earl or lord of regality from granting arms. Note that even today some nobles still appoint their own pursuivants, such as the Finlaggan Pursuivant to the Baron Macdonald of Sleat, the Slains Pursuivant to the Earl of Erroll, the Garioch Pursuivant to the Countess of Mar and the Endure Pursuivant to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, although these pursuivants do not grant arms.
I take it you read Joe's Article . . .
Graham Milne
2012-08-15 10:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by gregs talkin
Post by Graham Milne
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/lyondocs.htm
With regard to the power of earls and lords of regality to grant arms, it would be nonsensical if an earl could nobilitate (e.g. make a baron) but not grant the marks of nobility (i.e. arms) at the same time. Since arms are the means by which nobility is distinguished it follows that a right to nobilitate must necessarily imply a right to grant arms. A careful reading of the Acts of Parliament of 1592 and 1672 establishing the powers and duties of the Lord Lyon reveals that the 1592 Act conferred the power to visit (i.e. examine) the arms of noblemen, barons and gentlemen, to distinguish (i.e. to grant marks of difference to cadet branches) and to matriculate (i.e. record) arms, to inhibit common sort of people from bearing arms and to impose penalties on those who contravene the Act. There is nothing here that prevents an earl or lord of regality from exercising an existing right to grant arms or which says that arms already granted by such people before that date were not valid. The 1672 Act provides that everyone who uses arms should submit an account of their arms with evidence confirming their right to the arms, gives the Lord Lyon the power to grant arms to virtuous and well-deserving people (but this does not necessarily exclude others from doing the same), to furnish extracts of registered arms and to impose or remit penalties for the unauthorised use of arms (but this does not means that arms authorised by others are unlawful). The Act also says that the Lyon's register will be the true and unrepealable rule of all arms and bearings in Scotland but this does not of itself prevent arms granted otherwise than by the Lord Lyon from being recorded in the register. In other words, there is nothing in either of these Acts which gives the Lord Lyon the exclusive right to grant arms or which deprives those who had that right from exercising it in the future. It is true that Sir Thomas Innes of Learney in his 'Scots Heraldry' (2nd ed., p. 83) quotes the case of Macdonell v Macdonald (1826) to the effect that 'a person cannot create arms unto himself' in support of his assertion that the 'the granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative committed to the Kings of Arms' but these words do not exclude an earl or lord of regality from granting arms. Note that even today some nobles still appoint their own pursuivants, such as the Finlaggan Pursuivant to the Baron Macdonald of Sleat, the Slains Pursuivant to the Earl of Erroll, the Garioch Pursuivant to the Countess of Mar and the Endure Pursuivant to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, although these pursuivants do not grant arms.
I take it you read Joe's Article . . .
No. Which article - and who is Joe?
Turenne
2012-08-15 20:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Milne
No. Which article - and who is Joe?
McMillan?

RL
m***@gmail.com
2012-08-17 03:18:34 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:26:17 AM UTC+1, Graham Milne wrote: > No. >Which article - and who is Joe? McMillan? RL
Can't be. I've never published or even written an article on this subject.

Joseph McMillan
Graham Milne
2012-08-18 22:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by gregs talkin
Post by Graham Milne
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/lyondocs.htm
With regard to the power of earls and lords of regality to grant arms, it would be nonsensical if an earl could nobilitate (e.g. make a baron) but not grant the marks of nobility (i.e. arms) at the same time. Since arms are the means by which nobility is distinguished it follows that a right to nobilitate must necessarily imply a right to grant arms. A careful reading of the Acts of Parliament of 1592 and 1672 establishing the powers and duties of the Lord Lyon reveals that the 1592 Act conferred the power to visit (i.e. examine) the arms of noblemen, barons and gentlemen, to distinguish (i.e. to grant marks of difference to cadet branches) and to matriculate (i.e. record) arms, to inhibit common sort of people from bearing arms and to impose penalties on those who contravene the Act. There is nothing here that prevents an earl or lord of regality from exercising an existing right to grant arms or which says that arms already granted by such people before that date were not valid. The 1672 Act provides that everyone who uses arms should submit an account of their arms with evidence confirming their right to the arms, gives the Lord Lyon the power to grant arms to virtuous and well-deserving people (but this does not necessarily exclude others from doing the same), to furnish extracts of registered arms and to impose or remit penalties for the unauthorised use of arms (but this does not means that arms authorised by others are unlawful). The Act also says that the Lyon's register will be the true and unrepealable rule of all arms and bearings in Scotland but this does not of itself prevent arms granted otherwise than by the Lord Lyon from being recorded in the register. In other words, there is nothing in either of these Acts which gives the Lord Lyon the exclusive right to grant arms or which deprives those who had that right from exercising it in the future. It is true that Sir Thomas Innes of Learney in his 'Scots Heraldry' (2nd ed., p. 83) quotes the case of Macdonell v Macdonald (1826) to the effect that 'a person cannot create arms unto himself' in support of his assertion that the 'the granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative committed to the Kings of Arms' but these words do not exclude an earl or lord of regality from granting arms. Note that even today some nobles still appoint their own pursuivants, such as the Finlaggan Pursuivant to the Baron Macdonald of Sleat, the Slains Pursuivant to the Earl of Erroll, the Garioch Pursuivant to the Countess of Mar and the Endure Pursuivant to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, although these pursuivants do not grant arms.
I take it you read Joe's Article . . .
I note that Innes of Learney says in his 'Robes of the Feudal Baronage of Scotland' (p.117, n. 2) that in Scotland 'the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour'. This is a Lord Lyon writing of course.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
2012-08-27 10:46:27 UTC
Permalink
This is note 2:

2 Carnwath, pp. xvi, 1, lii. Similarly we find baronies, e.g. Muckart—certainly—and, it is said,
Blebo, in the Archbishopric of Sfc Andrews, held of and. under the Prelate (Hist. ItfSS. Comm., 4th
Beport, p. 484). That such fiefs gave baronial rank and title we have indeed a famous example in
Montmerency, "le premier Baron chreiien", a style which Woodward (Heraldry, British and. Foreign,
p. 404) observes is not so great as it sounds, for it merely denoted his being the first of the four barons
of the Chrestiente (cf. Scottice "halidome") or Bishopric of Isle de France. That Scotland had such
local baronages—as Dickinson has so amply illustrated—is only another example of its thorough legal
organisation. The existence of noblesse-en-vavasseur really augments the pyramidal grandeur of our
Monarchy. Barony on arriere fief is well known in numerous Bishoprics, Duchies, and Principalities all
over Europe. In Scotland, as in other countries where sub-infeudation was never stopped, as it was in
England by Quia Emptores, the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour, in the sense in which
that term is used in England. It is important to remind historians, antiquaries, and jurists of these
fundamental distinctions in jurisprudence.

It doesn't actually say that the Crown isn't the sole fount, it qualifies it as "in the sense in which that term is used in England." In Scotland the Crown is the Fount of everything in a legal sense, laws, honours, land-holdings and all else. If some of this has been franchised, as the administration of law was in barony courts, the Crown is still the Fount.
Graham Milne
2012-08-28 18:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
2 Carnwath, pp. xvi, 1, lii. Similarly we find baronies, e.g. Muckart—certainly—and, it is said,
Blebo, in the Archbishopric of Sfc Andrews, held of and. under the Prelate (Hist. ItfSS. Comm., 4th
Beport, p. 484). That such fiefs gave baronial rank and title we have indeed a famous example in
Montmerency, "le premier Baron chreiien", a style which Woodward (Heraldry, British and. Foreign,
p. 404) observes is not so great as it sounds, for it merely denoted his being the first of the four barons
of the Chrestiente (cf. Scottice "halidome") or Bishopric of Isle de France. That Scotland had such
local baronages—as Dickinson has so amply illustrated—is only another example of its thorough legal
organisation. The existence of noblesse-en-vavasseur really augments the pyramidal grandeur of our
Monarchy. Barony on arriere fief is well known in numerous Bishoprics, Duchies, and Principalities all
over Europe. In Scotland, as in other countries where sub-infeudation was never stopped, as it was in
England by Quia Emptores, the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour, in the sense in which
that term is used in England. It is important to remind historians, antiquaries, and jurists of these
fundamental distinctions in jurisprudence.
It doesn't actually say that the Crown isn't the sole fount, it qualifies it as "in the sense in which that term is used in England." In Scotland the Crown is the Fount of everything in a legal sense, laws, honours, land-holdings and all else. If some of this has been franchised, as the administration of law was in barony courts, the Crown is still the Fount.
Eh? The exact words I quote are in the note. When he says 'in the sense in which that term is used in England', the sense in England is that the Crown is he fount of all honour; in Scotland it isn't, which means that earls and lords of regality could create barons.
b***@btinternet.com
2012-08-28 23:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Milne
Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
2 Carnwath, pp. xvi, 1, lii. Similarly we find baronies, e.g. Muckart—certainly—and, it is said,
Blebo, in the Archbishopric of Sfc Andrews, held of and. under the Prelate (Hist. ItfSS. Comm., 4th
Beport, p. 484). That such fiefs gave baronial rank and title we have indeed a famous example in
Montmerency, "le premier Baron chreiien", a style which Woodward (Heraldry, British and. Foreign,
p. 404) observes is not so great as it sounds, for it merely denoted his being the first of the four barons
of the Chrestiente (cf. Scottice "halidome") or Bishopric of Isle de France. That Scotland had such
local baronages—as Dickinson has so amply illustrated—is only another example of its thorough legal
organisation. The existence of noblesse-en-vavasseur really augments the pyramidal grandeur of our
Monarchy. Barony on arriere fief is well known in numerous Bishoprics, Duchies, and Principalities all
over Europe. In Scotland, as in other countries where sub-infeudation was never stopped, as it was in
England by Quia Emptores, the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour, in the sense in which
that term is used in England. It is important to remind historians, antiquaries, and jurists of these
fundamental distinctions in jurisprudence.
It doesn't actually say that the Crown isn't the sole fount, it qualifies it as "in the sense in which that term is used in England." In Scotland the Crown is the Fount of everything in a legal sense, laws, honours, land-holdings and all else. If some of this has been franchised, as the administration of law was in barony courts, the Crown is still the Fount.
Eh? The exact words I quote are in the note. When he says 'in the sense in which that term is used in England', the sense in England is that the Crown is he fount of all honour; in Scotland it isn't, which means that earls and lords of regality could create barons.
I suspect your interest in advancing the proposition that Lords of Regality could erect baronies might have something to do with the fact that you claim to be such a one. Are you able give us an example of a Lord of Regality creating a barony? There seems to be a contradiction in this proposition since the Lord of Regality would of necessity have been a vassal of the Crown and would have required the Crown's permission to disjoin any part of his land and give jurisdiction to another person. Could you be confusing a sasine charter a me vel de me followed by a Crown Charter of Resignation erecting the lands into a barony by the Crown with your proposition that it was the grant by the L of R that erected the barony?

Regards,

Brian G. Hamilton

Heritable Bailie of Glencoe
Graham Milne
2012-08-29 15:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@btinternet.com
Post by Graham Milne
Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
2 Carnwath, pp. xvi, 1, lii. Similarly we find baronies, e.g. Muckart—certainly—and, it is said,
Blebo, in the Archbishopric of Sfc Andrews, held of and. under the Prelate (Hist. ItfSS. Comm., 4th
Beport, p. 484). That such fiefs gave baronial rank and title we have indeed a famous example in
Montmerency, "le premier Baron chreiien", a style which Woodward (Heraldry, British and. Foreign,
p. 404) observes is not so great as it sounds, for it merely denoted his being the first of the four barons
of the Chrestiente (cf. Scottice "halidome") or Bishopric of Isle de France. That Scotland had such
local baronages—as Dickinson has so amply illustrated—is only another example of its thorough legal
organisation. The existence of noblesse-en-vavasseur really augments the pyramidal grandeur of our
Monarchy. Barony on arriere fief is well known in numerous Bishoprics, Duchies, and Principalities all
over Europe. In Scotland, as in other countries where sub-infeudation was never stopped, as it was in
England by Quia Emptores, the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour, in the sense in which
that term is used in England. It is important to remind historians, antiquaries, and jurists of these
fundamental distinctions in jurisprudence.
It doesn't actually say that the Crown isn't the sole fount, it qualifies it as "in the sense in which that term is used in England." In Scotland the Crown is the Fount of everything in a legal sense, laws, honours, land-holdings and all else. If some of this has been franchised, as the administration of law was in barony courts, the Crown is still the Fount.
Eh? The exact words I quote are in the note. When he says 'in the sense in which that term is used in England', the sense in England is that the Crown is he fount of all honour; in Scotland it isn't, which means that earls and lords of regality could create barons.
I suspect your interest in advancing the proposition that Lords of Regality could erect baronies might have something to do with the fact that you claim to be such a one. Are you able give us an example of a Lord of Regality creating a barony? There seems to be a contradiction in this proposition since the Lord of Regality would of necessity have been a vassal of the Crown and would have required the Crown's permission to disjoin any part of his land and give jurisdiction to another person. Could you be confusing a sasine charter a me vel de me followed by a Crown Charter of Resignation erecting the lands into a barony by the Crown with your proposition that it was the grant by the L of R that erected the barony?
Regards,
Brian G. Hamilton
Heritable Bailie of Glencoe
I am not prepared to have a discussion with someone who starts a post by trying to imply that I have a personal (and therefore, by implication, not independent, and therefore, by implication, dishonest) interest in the matter.
Graham Milne
2012-08-29 15:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Milne
Post by b***@btinternet.com
Post by Graham Milne
Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
2 Carnwath, pp. xvi, 1, lii. Similarly we find baronies, e.g. Muckart—certainly—and, it is said,
Blebo, in the Archbishopric of Sfc Andrews, held of and. under the Prelate (Hist. ItfSS. Comm., 4th
Beport, p. 484). That such fiefs gave baronial rank and title we have indeed a famous example in
Montmerency, "le premier Baron chreiien", a style which Woodward (Heraldry, British and. Foreign,
p. 404) observes is not so great as it sounds, for it merely denoted his being the first of the four barons
of the Chrestiente (cf. Scottice "halidome") or Bishopric of Isle de France. That Scotland had such
local baronages—as Dickinson has so amply illustrated—is only another example of its thorough legal
organisation. The existence of noblesse-en-vavasseur really augments the pyramidal grandeur of our
Monarchy. Barony on arriere fief is well known in numerous Bishoprics, Duchies, and Principalities all
over Europe. In Scotland, as in other countries where sub-infeudation was never stopped, as it was in
England by Quia Emptores, the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour, in the sense in which
that term is used in England. It is important to remind historians, antiquaries, and jurists of these
fundamental distinctions in jurisprudence.
It doesn't actually say that the Crown isn't the sole fount, it qualifies it as "in the sense in which that term is used in England." In Scotland the Crown is the Fount of everything in a legal sense, laws, honours, land-holdings and all else. If some of this has been franchised, as the administration of law was in barony courts, the Crown is still the Fount.
Eh? The exact words I quote are in the note. When he says 'in the sense in which that term is used in England', the sense in England is that the Crown is he fount of all honour; in Scotland it isn't, which means that earls and lords of regality could create barons.
I suspect your interest in advancing the proposition that Lords of Regality could erect baronies might have something to do with the fact that you claim to be such a one. Are you able give us an example of a Lord of Regality creating a barony? There seems to be a contradiction in this proposition since the Lord of Regality would of necessity have been a vassal of the Crown and would have required the Crown's permission to disjoin any part of his land and give jurisdiction to another person. Could you be confusing a sasine charter a me vel de me followed by a Crown Charter of Resignation erecting the lands into a barony by the Crown with your proposition that it was the grant by the L of R that erected the barony?
Regards,
Brian G. Hamilton
Heritable Bailie of Glencoe
I am not prepared to have a discussion with someone who starts a post by trying to imply that I have a personal (and therefore, by implication, not independent, and therefore, by implication, dishonest) interest in the matter.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.heraldry/4D72GvgKvkw/yZ9l1TrrPjYJ
b***@btinternet.com
2012-08-29 18:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Milne
Post by b***@btinternet.com
Post by Graham Milne
Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
2 Carnwath, pp. xvi, 1, lii. Similarly we find baronies, e.g. Muckart—certainly—and, it is said,
Blebo, in the Archbishopric of Sfc Andrews, held of and. under the Prelate (Hist. ItfSS. Comm., 4th
Beport, p. 484). That such fiefs gave baronial rank and title we have indeed a famous example in
Montmerency, "le premier Baron chreiien", a style which Woodward (Heraldry, British and. Foreign,
p. 404) observes is not so great as it sounds, for it merely denoted his being the first of the four barons
of the Chrestiente (cf. Scottice "halidome") or Bishopric of Isle de France. That Scotland had such
local baronages—as Dickinson has so amply illustrated—is only another example of its thorough legal
organisation. The existence of noblesse-en-vavasseur really augments the pyramidal grandeur of our
Monarchy. Barony on arriere fief is well known in numerous Bishoprics, Duchies, and Principalities all
over Europe. In Scotland, as in other countries where sub-infeudation was never stopped, as it was in
England by Quia Emptores, the Crown was not the "sole" Fountain of Honour, in the sense in which
that term is used in England. It is important to remind historians, antiquaries, and jurists of these
fundamental distinctions in jurisprudence.
It doesn't actually say that the Crown isn't the sole fount, it qualifies it as "in the sense in which that term is used in England." In Scotland the Crown is the Fount of everything in a legal sense, laws, honours, land-holdings and all else. If some of this has been franchised, as the administration of law was in barony courts, the Crown is still the Fount.
Eh? The exact words I quote are in the note. When he says 'in the sense in which that term is used in England', the sense in England is that the Crown is he fount of all honour; in Scotland it isn't, which means that earls and lords of regality could create barons.
I suspect your interest in advancing the proposition that Lords of Regality could erect baronies might have something to do with the fact that you claim to be such a one. Are you able give us an example of a Lord of Regality creating a barony? There seems to be a contradiction in this proposition since the Lord of Regality would of necessity have been a vassal of the Crown and would have required the Crown's permission to disjoin any part of his land and give jurisdiction to another person. Could you be confusing a sasine charter a me vel de me followed by a Crown Charter of Resignation erecting the lands into a barony by the Crown with your proposition that it was the grant by the L of R that erected the barony?
Regards,
Brian G. Hamilton
Heritable Bailie of Glencoe
I am not prepared to have a discussion with someone who starts a post by trying to imply that I have a personal (and therefore, by implication, not independent, and therefore, by implication, dishonest) interest in the matter.
Dear Graham,

It is a matter of regret to me that you decline to continue this discussion however, the fact that you have a personal interest does not preclude you from being objective. No one with a sppecial interest in a subject can be described as 'independent'; we all have a point of view that we are trying to advance and defend. Lastly please accept that I do not charge you with any degree of dishonesty.

BGH

Heritable Bailie of Glencoe

Alex Maxwell Findlater
2012-08-28 21:54:36 UTC
Permalink
And your point is?
Graham Milne
2012-08-29 15:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
And your point is?
My point is that in Scotland the Crown was not the sole fount of honour and nothing in the two Acts concerning the Lord Lyon make it so.
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