Peter Howarth
2015-08-11 07:49:41 UTC
I have unfortunately found - quite by accident - another query in the Dictionary of British Arms, whilst researching the Latimer family and its arms.
Volume Three p 158 under the sub-heading 'Gu cross patonce Or & label Sa semy de lis Or' has
LATYMER, Sire Thomas le. N 711
N is the siglum for the Parliamentary Roll (or Great or Bannerets' Roll) dated 1312-1314. According to Sir Anthony Wagner, CEMRA pp 42-43, the original manuscript is British Museum Cotton, Caligula A. XVIII ff. 3-21b, which has been transcribed and published four times.
I have a photocopy of Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas's edition, 'A Roll of Arms of the Reign of Edward the Second' (1828). The relevant entry says
Sire Thomas le Latymer, de goules, a une crois patee de or, e un label de azure florette de or.
In other words, Nicolas says the roll has the label blue, DBA says it has it black. [At that period, a cross 'patee' was what we now call a cross patonce.] DBA does not say which edition was used nor who wrote up the index cards.
For what it is worth, there were at least two cousins named Thomas le Latimer and several other examples of the arms with labels semy de lis gold on blue and on black.
I have been in touch with the College of Arms, but they are rather defensive and don't seem interested in keeping a list of amendments.
Peter Howarth
Volume Three p 158 under the sub-heading 'Gu cross patonce Or & label Sa semy de lis Or' has
LATYMER, Sire Thomas le. N 711
N is the siglum for the Parliamentary Roll (or Great or Bannerets' Roll) dated 1312-1314. According to Sir Anthony Wagner, CEMRA pp 42-43, the original manuscript is British Museum Cotton, Caligula A. XVIII ff. 3-21b, which has been transcribed and published four times.
I have a photocopy of Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas's edition, 'A Roll of Arms of the Reign of Edward the Second' (1828). The relevant entry says
Sire Thomas le Latymer, de goules, a une crois patee de or, e un label de azure florette de or.
In other words, Nicolas says the roll has the label blue, DBA says it has it black. [At that period, a cross 'patee' was what we now call a cross patonce.] DBA does not say which edition was used nor who wrote up the index cards.
For what it is worth, there were at least two cousins named Thomas le Latimer and several other examples of the arms with labels semy de lis gold on blue and on black.
I have been in touch with the College of Arms, but they are rather defensive and don't seem interested in keeping a list of amendments.
Peter Howarth