Significance of grand-quartering

[Richard Smith]

I am trying to interpret a coat of arms that was in a window of the old
church at Blandford, Dorset. The window was created in 1629, but the
church burnt down in 1731 destroying the window. Fortunately a
description taken in 1644 has survived:

Quarterly: 1 & 4, sub-quarterly: i & iv, argent, a mullet sable, on a
chief Or a fleur-de-lis gules; ii & iii, argent, fretty sable, a chief
gules; 2, gules, a bend between six cross-crosslets Or; 3, argent,
fretty azure.

Three of the arms can be identified with certainty: 1(i) etc. is Rogers
of Bryanston; 2 is Furneaux; and 3 is Echyngham. I suspect the
remaining arms, in 1(ii) etc., to be a Markaunt family from Hampshire,
even though Papworth's Ordinary annotates it V* meaning an erroneous
entry in the 1780 printed Glover's Ordinary. Is there an easy of
finding out what the perceived mistake is? The same arms appear as a
quartering in the Tygehall arms in the 1566 Visitation of Berkshire, and
that family has a descent from a Markaunt heiress.

In normal use, the family seemed to use just Rogers quartered with
Markaunt; this is the only instance I've encountered that includes
Furneaux and Echyngham quarterings. Can I infer any useful genealogical
information from the fact it uses sub-quarters, rather than simply
including the four arms sequentially in quarters? For example, am I
correct in thinking it implies the Markaunt marriage happened before the
Fureaux and Echyngham ones?

Richard

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Post by Richard Smith
I am trying to interpret a coat of arms that was in a window of the
old church at Blandford, Dorset. The window was created in 1629, but
the church burnt down in 1731 destroying the window. Fortunately a
Quarterly: 1 & 4, sub-quarterly: i & iv, argent, a mullet sable, on a
chief Or a fleur-de-lis gules; ii & iii, argent, fretty sable, a chief
gules; 2, gules, a bend between six cross-crosslets Or; 3, argent,
fretty azure.
Three of the arms can be identified with certainty: 1(i) etc. is
Rogers of Bryanston; 2 is Furneaux; and 3 is Echyngham. I suspect the
remaining arms, in 1(ii) etc., to be a Markaunt family from Hampshire,
even though Papworth's Ordinary annotates it V* meaning an erroneous
entry in the 1780 printed Glover's Ordinary. Is there an easy of
finding out what the perceived mistake is? The same arms appear as a
quartering in the Tygehall arms in the 1566 Visitation of Berkshire,
and that family has a descent from a Markaunt heiress.
In normal use, the family seemed to use just Rogers quartered with
Markaunt; this is the only instance I've encountered that includes
Furneaux and Echyngham quarterings. Can I infer any useful
genealogical information from the fact it uses sub-quarters, rather
than simply including the four arms sequentially in quarters? For
example, am I correct in thinking it implies the Markaunt marriage
happened before the Fureaux and Echyngham ones?

Basically I have no idea about 16th cent, or earlier, practice with
grand quarters: heraldry was developing then, as it does to this day.

But in the chance that a modern practice gives some insights, my
grandfather got a grandquarter devised for his arms to enhance the name
change that his grandfather had had done on its own, though organised by
the College. I am reasonably certain that my understanding of what was
done for hmy g-f is correct, much as I and my siblings initially had no
idea: my father was not interested in such niceties and his father had
died eight years before us siblings started to be born so could not
explain matters to us.

The name change was to add Lybbe to, and after, Powys which latter was
the male line name. The gt-gt-g-f did not hyphenate this though his
son, my gt-g-f did when he made the name change some twenty years later.
By 1907, 45 years after the original change, my g-f had neither his
father nor his g-f living and was free to do what he wanted. The
College then gave him what we now call impartible arms; these are a
grand quarter of Powys and Lybbe and mean that they are the personal
arms and cannot be detached or taken apart. A further feature is that
Lybbe was put in quarters (i) and (iv) and Powys in (ii) and (iii); this
is because Lybbe is the senior part of the double barrel in spite of the
male line name being Powys; the original name change enabled the
gt-gt-g-f to call himself plain Mr Lybbe.

This sort of thing is normally done as a result of a name and arms
clause in a will, but this was not the case here.

Nevertheless my surmise is that these arms in Blandford church
represented a name change following such a will clause and follows
further a wish by the name and arms changer to keep both the original
and new names and arms in the personal arms. Certainly many earlier
medieval name changes were simply an adoption of, usually, the wife or
the mother's name and arms.

Scottish grand quarters are different.

[Richard Smith]

Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
The name change was to add Lybbe to, and after, Powys which latter was
the male line name. The gt-gt-g-f did not hyphenate this though his
son, my gt-g-f did when he made the name change some twenty years later.
By 1907, 45 years after the original change, my g-f had neither his
father nor his g-f living and was free to do what he wanted. The
College then gave him what we now call impartible arms; these are a
grand quarter of Powys and Lybbe and mean that they are the personal
arms and cannot be detached or taken apart. A further feature is that
Lybbe was put in quarters (i) and (iv) and Powys in (ii) and (iii); this
is because Lybbe is the senior part of the double barrel in spite of the
male line name being Powys; the original name change enabled the
gt-gt-g-f to call himself plain Mr Lybbe.

Thanks. That's a very helpful example. I'd not come across the idea
that something looking like a quartering could in fact be impartible
arms. Something similar could make sense here (though I'm fairly sure
there was no corresponding name change: certainly there was no
double-barrelling of the name).

Richard

[Derek Howard]

Post by Richard Smith
I am trying to interpret a coat of arms that was in a window of the old
church at Blandford, Dorset. The window was created in 1629, but the
church burnt down in 1731 destroying the window. Fortunately a
Quarterly: 1 & 4, sub-quarterly: i & iv, argent, a mullet sable, on a
chief Or a fleur-de-lis gules; ii & iii, argent, fretty sable, a chief
gules; 2, gules, a bend between six cross-crosslets Or; 3, argent,
fretty azure.
Three of the arms can be identified with certainty: 1(i) etc. is Rogers
of Bryanston; 2 is Furneaux; and 3 is Echyngham. I suspect the
remaining arms, in 1(ii) etc., to be a Markaunt family from Hampshire,
even though Papworth's Ordinary annotates it V* meaning an erroneous
entry in the 1780 printed Glover's Ordinary. Is there an easy of
finding out what the perceived mistake is? The same arms appear as a
quartering in the Tygehall arms in the 1566 Visitation of Berkshire, and
that family has a descent from a Markaunt heiress.
In normal use, the family seemed to use just Rogers quartered with
Markaunt; this is the only instance I've encountered that includes
Furneaux and Echyngham quarterings. Can I infer any useful genealogical
information from the fact it uses sub-quarters, rather than simply
including the four arms sequentially in quarters? For example, am I
correct in thinking it implies the Markaunt marriage happened before the
Fureaux and Echyngham ones?
Richard

The family of Roger of Bryanston, Dorset, bore Argent a pierced molet Sable on a chief Or a fleur-de-lis Gules (see 'Parishes: Houghton', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London, 1908), pp. 413-417)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol3/pp413-417

This is a variation on the Rogers arms of Argent on a chief Or a fleur-de-lis Gules occurring in a few late medieval sources (apparently see also Gerard: "The Particular Description of Somerset", Somerset Records Society, 1900, p 31).

But by the 1623 herald's visitation of Dorset they are attributed the quartred arms of 1 & 4 Argent a mullet sable on a chief Or a fleur de lis Gules, 2 & 3 Argent fretty Sable a chief Gules
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcound00stge#page/78/mode/2up

It was probably the case that the heralds' records, having most recently shown the quartered arms as attributed to Rogers, rather than the simple plain arms with a note of entitlement to show the quarterings in right of the inheritance from an heraldic heiress, that persuaded the person installing the glass window to treat the quarterings as impartible Rogers arms.

An outline of the Rogers family, in relation to the manor of Kilve, is given at http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol5/pp96-103#anchorn57 and illustrates their acquisition of that former Furneaux manor:
"Simon de Furneaux, the last Matthew's son or grandson, died in 1359, leaving an only daughter, Elizabeth, wife of John Blount.

"Elizabeth Blount, still in possession in 1386, left an only daughter Alice, wife successively of Sir Richard Stafford and Sir Richard Stury. She held the manor in 1412 but died childless in 1414. Her heirs were the descendants of the sisters of Simon de Furneaux, but by an arrangement made in 1421 Kilve and lands in Kilton and Holford were assigned as a third share of the estate to Ralph Bush and his wife Eleanor, widow of Sir John Chidiock and greatgranddaughter of Eleanor Furneaux, the eldest sister. Pending the settlement Ralph and Eleanor sold what was then their quarter share in Kilve in 1419 to John Roger of Bryanston (Dors.), a merchant.

"John Roger or Rogers died in 1441 and was followed by his son, also John. John the younger died in 1450, having settled Kilve on his wife Anne, later married to John, Lord Audley. She died in 1498 and was succeeded by her son Henry Rogers (cr. K.B. 1501). Sir Henry died c. 1506 and was followed by his son John (d. c. 1546) and his grandson, also John (d. 1565). Richard Rogers, son and heir of the last, was knighted in 1576 and died in 1605. Sir John Rogers (d. 1613), son and eventual heir of Richard, was followed in turn by his own sons Edward (d. 1624) and Richard. Richard was a minor, and the manor was thus for some years in the hands of Sir Lewis Dyve of Bromham (Beds.), second husband of Howarda, Edward Roger's widow.

"Richard Rogers came of age in 1632, though his mother, after her second marriage known as Margaret Banastre (d. 1663), had jointure in Kilve, and he himself was described later as only tenant for life and as never having had possession of the manor. He died in 1643 leaving two daughters, Elizabeth and Rogersa, in the guardianship of his mother and of Lancelot Lake. Elizabeth married first Charles Cavendish, styled Viscount Mansfield (d. 1659), and second Charles Stuart, duke of Richmond and Lennox. She died in 1661, and her half share was conveyed in 1662 to Sir John Rogers of Langton Long Blandford (Dors.), son of Richard Rogers, a younger brother of Sir John Rogers (d. 1613). Rogersa, wife of Sir Henry Belasyse, K.B., died without issue."

The arms of Markaunt family are shown as Argent fretty sable with a chief gules in VCH. The manor of Hinton Markaunt passed, together with West Mapledurham, to John Roger of Bryanston (co. Dorset). Hinton Burrant also passed from Sir Robert Markaunt, lord of the manors of West Mapledurham and Hinton Markaunt, and for some time followed the descent of those manors (q.v.), passing with them in 1422 to John Roger of Bryanston (co. Dorset).
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol3/pp94-101

"In 1419, as heirs to a quarter of Alice's estate, Ralph Bush and Eleanor his wife sold their interest in Perry Furneaux to John Rogers of Bryanston (Dorset), but in 1421 a partition assigned Perry, with Stringston, to Joan, descended from the Furneaux family, and her husband Robert Greyndour (d. 1443)."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol6/pp325-330#anchorn59

It begins to look as if the 17th century stained glass you mentioned is an antiquarian exercise in illustrating manorial estates once owned by the Rogers family and since lost, rather than purely the inheritance of heraldic heiresses but you would have to check out the genealogies further.

Whether the Rogers arms were quartered with Markaunt in the 16th century could perhaps be checked by asking the National Archives for a photo of the seal mentioned here:
Somerset C. 7999. Indenture, dated 1 December, 1598, witnessing that Sir Richard Rogers of Bryanston, knight, has demised to John Willyams of Heringston and John Strode of Quarleston, esquires, the manors of Kylvealias Kulve, and Holford for ninety-nine years from the death of the lessor; rent, 20s.; covenant for redemption on payment of 5s. English. Signed: Rychard Rogers.Seal of arms. Endorsed with signatures of witnesses.
('Index of places: A - D', in A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds: Volume 6, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1915), pp. 565-599) http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ancient-deeds/vol6/pp537-553

Derek Howard

[Derek Howard]

Post by Derek Howard

Post by Richard Smith
I am trying to interpret a coat of arms that was in a window of the old
church at Blandford, Dorset. The window was created in 1629, but the
church burnt down in 1731 destroying the window. Fortunately a
Quarterly: 1 & 4, sub-quarterly: i & iv, argent, a mullet sable, on a
chief Or a fleur-de-lis gules; ii & iii, argent, fretty sable, a chief
gules; 2, gules, a bend between six cross-crosslets Or; 3, argent,
fretty azure.
Three of the arms can be identified with certainty: 1(i) etc. is Rogers
of Bryanston; 2 is Furneaux; and 3 is Echyngham. I suspect the
remaining arms, in 1(ii) etc., to be a Markaunt family from Hampshire,
even though Papworth's Ordinary annotates it V* meaning an erroneous
entry in the 1780 printed Glover's Ordinary. Is there an easy of
finding out what the perceived mistake is? The same arms appear as a
quartering in the Tygehall arms in the 1566 Visitation of Berkshire, and
that family has a descent from a Markaunt heiress.
In normal use, the family seemed to use just Rogers quartered with
Markaunt; this is the only instance I've encountered that includes
Furneaux and Echyngham quarterings. Can I infer any useful genealogical
information from the fact it uses sub-quarters, rather than simply
including the four arms sequentially in quarters? For example, am I
correct in thinking it implies the Markaunt marriage happened before the
Fureaux and Echyngham ones?
Richard

The family of Roger of Bryanston, Dorset, bore Argent a pierced molet Sable on a chief Or a fleur-de-lis Gules (see 'Parishes: Houghton', in A History of the County of Hampshire: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London, 1908), pp. 413-417)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol3/pp413-417
This is a variation on the Rogers arms of Argent on a chief Or a fleur-de-lis Gules occurring in a few late medieval sources (apparently see also Gerard: "The Particular Description of Somerset", Somerset Records Society, 1900, p 31).
But by the 1623 herald's visitation of Dorset they are attributed the quartred arms of 1 & 4 Argent a mullet sable on a chief Or a fleur de lis Gules, 2 & 3 Argent fretty Sable a chief Gules
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcound00stge#page/78/mode/2up
It was probably the case that the heralds' records, having most recently shown the quartered arms as attributed to Rogers, rather than the simple plain arms with a note of entitlement to show the quarterings in right of the inheritance from an heraldic heiress, that persuaded the person installing the glass window to treat the quarterings as impartible Rogers arms.
"Simon de Furneaux, the last Matthew's son or grandson, died in 1359, leaving an only daughter, Elizabeth, wife of John Blount.
"Elizabeth Blount, still in possession in 1386, left an only daughter Alice, wife successively of Sir Richard Stafford and Sir Richard Stury. She held the manor in 1412 but died childless in 1414. Her heirs were the descendants of the sisters of Simon de Furneaux, but by an arrangement made in 1421 Kilve and lands in Kilton and Holford were assigned as a third share of the estate to Ralph Bush and his wife Eleanor, widow of Sir John Chidiock and greatgranddaughter of Eleanor Furneaux, the eldest sister. Pending the settlement Ralph and Eleanor sold what was then their quarter share in Kilve in 1419 to John Roger of Bryanston (Dors.), a merchant.
"John Roger or Rogers died in 1441 and was followed by his son, also John. John the younger died in 1450, having settled Kilve on his wife Anne, later married to John, Lord Audley. She died in 1498 and was succeeded by her son Henry Rogers (cr. K.B. 1501). Sir Henry died c. 1506 and was followed by his son John (d. c. 1546) and his grandson, also John (d. 1565). Richard Rogers, son and heir of the last, was knighted in 1576 and died in 1605. Sir John Rogers (d. 1613), son and eventual heir of Richard, was followed in turn by his own sons Edward (d. 1624) and Richard. Richard was a minor, and the manor was thus for some years in the hands of Sir Lewis Dyve of Bromham (Beds.), second husband of Howarda, Edward Roger's widow.
"Richard Rogers came of age in 1632, though his mother, after her second marriage known as Margaret Banastre (d. 1663), had jointure in Kilve, and he himself was described later as only tenant for life and as never having had possession of the manor. He died in 1643 leaving two daughters, Elizabeth and Rogersa, in the guardianship of his mother and of Lancelot Lake. Elizabeth married first Charles Cavendish, styled Viscount Mansfield (d. 1659), and second Charles Stuart, duke of Richmond and Lennox. She died in 1661, and her half share was conveyed in 1662 to Sir John Rogers of Langton Long Blandford (Dors.), son of Richard Rogers, a younger brother of Sir John Rogers (d. 1613). Rogersa, wife of Sir Henry Belasyse, K.B., died without issue."
The arms of Markaunt family are shown as Argent fretty sable with a chief gules in VCH. The manor of Hinton Markaunt passed, together with West Mapledurham, to John Roger of Bryanston (co. Dorset). Hinton Burrant also passed from Sir Robert Markaunt, lord of the manors of West Mapledurham and Hinton Markaunt, and for some time followed the descent of those manors (q.v.), passing with them in 1422 to John Roger of Bryanston (co. Dorset).
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol3/pp94-101
"In 1419, as heirs to a quarter of Alice's estate, Ralph Bush and Eleanor his wife sold their interest in Perry Furneaux to John Rogers of Bryanston (Dorset), but in 1421 a partition assigned Perry, with Stringston, to Joan, descended from the Furneaux family, and her husband Robert Greyndour (d. 1443)."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol6/pp325-330#anchorn59
It begins to look as if the 17th century stained glass you mentioned is an antiquarian exercise in illustrating manorial estates once owned by the Rogers family and since lost, rather than purely the inheritance of heraldic heiresses but you would have to check out the genealogies further.
Somerset C. 7999. Indenture, dated 1 December, 1598, witnessing that Sir Richard Rogers of Bryanston, knight, has demised to John Willyams of Heringston and John Strode of Quarleston, esquires, the manors of Kylvealias Kulve, and Holford for ninety-nine years from the death of the lessor; rent, 20s.; covenant for redemption on payment of 5s. English. Signed: Rychard Rogers.Seal of arms. Endorsed with signatures of witnesses.
('Index of places: A - D', in A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds: Volume 6, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1915), pp. 565-599) http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ancient-deeds/vol6/pp537-553
Derek Howard

One of the dangers of thinking about things too long while having other priorities: I have just spotted the now considerable communication in the last couple of days posted on soc.genealogy.medieval

Derek Howard

[Richard Smith]

Post by Derek Howard
This is a variation on the Rogers arms of Argent on a chief Or a
fleur-de-lis Gules occurring in a few late medieval sources
(apparently see also Gerard: "The Particular Description of
Somerset", Somerset Records Society, 1900, p 31).

Thanks. I hadn't thought to consult Gerard on this point. (Foolishly,
as I was referring to him only a few days ago on another subject entirely.)

Not wishing to be pedantic, but I don't think we know that Gerard is
describing the Rogers arms from a mediaeval document. The deeds he
mentions are temp. Edward III & Richard II, but I don't think Kilve was
in the Rogers family's hands until two decades after Richard II's reign
ended, but it was still held by them when Gerard visited. It seems
quite possible that Gerard's source was a contemporary coat of arms, and
if it had quartering he only quoted the dexter chief supposing it to be
the patrilineal Rogers arms.

Post by Derek Howard
It was probably the case that the heralds' records, having most
recently shown the quartered arms as attributed to Rogers, rather
than the simple plain arms with a note of entitlement to show the
quarterings in right of the inheritance from an heraldic heiress,
that persuaded the person installing the glass window to treat the
quarterings as impartible Rogers arms.

Yes, that sounds quite plausible.

I appreciate things were less formal back then, but if the Rogers family
adopted arms with the Markaunt quartering as their impartible arms as
you suggest, would they have been entitled show show any quarterings
gained before they adopted the Markaunt quartering? And if not, would
anyone have cared in practice?

Post by Derek Howard
"In 1419, as heirs to a quarter of Alice's estate, Ralph Bush and
Eleanor his wife sold their interest in Perry Furneaux to John Rogers
of Bryanston (Dorset), but in 1421 a partition assigned Perry, with
Stringston, to Joan, descended from the Furneaux family, and her
husband Robert Greyndour (d. 1443)."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol6/pp325-330#anchorn59

This is very interesting, and not one I'd noticed. It makes me wonder
whether Joan might be John Rogers' daughter. One to investigate.

Post by Derek Howard
It begins to look as if the 17th century stained glass you mentioned
is an antiquarian exercise in illustrating manorial estates once
owned by the Rogers family and since lost, rather than purely the
inheritance of heraldic heiresses but you would have to check out the
genealogies further.

There may be something to that. By the early 17th century the family's
landholds had declined considerably from their peak in the 15th century.
Maybe there was an element of looking back at past prosperity?

Post by Derek Howard
Whether the Rogers arms were quartered with Markaunt in the 16th
century could perhaps be checked by [...]

I can answer that with certainty as the quartered Rogers / Markaunt arms
are used in another window, this time in the church at Bryanston (which
also no longer survives). It can be dated to c1490-c1506.

Thanks for the help.

Richard