Arms of junior royals

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Graham

2012-12-09 18:12:44 UTC

I realise that this has probably been done before.
Usual For what it's worth applies re wikipedia
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm
gives the marks of cadency which have been specifically assigned to
members of the Royal Family other than the Sovereign. Here is a list
of them (and any spouses) in succession order. See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sodacan/British_Royal_Armorial
NB that I have no connection with this user.

1. Charles, Prince of Wales (b. 1948)
--- --- --- (granted 1958):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Charles,_Prince_of_Wales.svg
[Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (granted 17th July 2005)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Camilla,_Duchess_of_Cornwall.svg]

2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
--- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug 2000)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Cambridge.svg
(cf. the version at http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)
[Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Catherine,_Duchess_of_Cambridge.svg]

3. Henry (b. 1984)
scallop --- scallop --- scallop (granted 10 Aug 2002)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Henry_of_Wales.svg

4. Andrew, duke of York 1986 (b. 1960)
--- anchor --- (granted 1963)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Andrew,_Duke_of_York.svg

5. Beatrice (b. 1988)
bee pr. --- bee pr. --- bee pr. (granted 18 Jul 2006)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Beatrice_of_York.svg

6. Eugenie (b. 1990)
thistle pr. --- thistle pr. --- thistle pr. (granted Jul 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Eugenie_of_York.svg

7. Edward, Earl of Wessex 1999 (b. 1964)
--- rose --- (i.e., a Tudor Rose) (granted 18 Jun 1983)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Edward,_Earl_of_Wessex.svg
[Sophie, Countess of Wessex (Were the arms granted to her or to her
father?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sophie,_Countess_of_Wessex.svg]

8. James, Viscount Severn (b. 2007)
It remains to be seen if he will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2025

9. Louise (b. 2003)
It remains to be seen if she will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2021

10. Anne, Princess Royal, formerly Mrs Mark Philips (b. 1950)
cross heart cross (granted 1962)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Anne,_the_Princess_Royal.svg
Is it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format?
Does Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence bear arms?

11. Peter Phillips (b. 1977)
Differenced version of the arms granted to his grandfather in 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arms_of_Peter_Phillips.svg
How would the arms of his daughters Savannah (12) and Isla (13) be
shown? Their father's arms (complete with label) on a lozenge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency
‘Daughters have no special brisures, and use their father's arms on a
lozenge. This is because English heraldry has no requirement that
women's arms be unique.’
[Autumn Phillips - does she bear arms?]

14. Zara Tindall (b. 1981)
Differenced version of the arms granted to her grandfather in 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Zara_Phillips_(Variant).svg
Did her arms change in any way on her marriage to Mike Tindall? Does
he bear arms?

15. Viscount Linley
Differenced version of the arms granted to his father
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viscount_Linley.svg
Why do his personal arms have quarterings of his mother’s, when e.g.
Peter Phillips’ do not?
[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those
of her father the Earl of Harrington?
http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-Family-Coat]

16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?

17. Hon Margarita Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be her arms? Her father’s in a lozenge?

18. Lady Sarah Chatto
Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?
How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?
Presumably this would depend on whether their father is armigerous?
[Daniel Chatto - does he bear arms?]

Turenne

2012-12-09 19:57:24 UTC

Permalink

I like Beatrice's bees.

I had no idea that the Philip's arms were such rubbish...

As far as whether it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format. Here are the arms of Princess Mary, Countess of Harewood, who preceded Anne as Princess Royal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Mary,_the_Princess_Royal_and_Countess_of_Harewood.svg

As far as I know; Timothy Laurence isn't armigerous

18. Lady Sarah Chatto

Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?

Yes

How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?

As their father, but with the appropriate mark of cadency. That said; Chatto is a Scottish name, (from the lands of Chatto, Roxburghshire) so they may bear a bordure rather than a label/crescent.

[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those

of her father the Earl of Harrington?
http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-Family-Coat]

Yes

RL

Turenne

2012-12-09 21:11:07 UTC

Permalink

16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?

Could be. Or a charge on one of the three labels. (See Prince William)

17. Hon Margarita Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be her arms? Her father’s in a lozenge?

Yes

RL

Charles

2012-12-10 18:04:42 UTC

Permalink

X-No-Archive: Yes

16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?
Could be. Or a charge on one of the three labels. (See Prince William)

Is William a useful precedent? It seems only the direct line (heirs
eventual) of the British Royal Family use the label of three points.
It makes sense too because all the heir apparent has to do is drop the
charge. Makes it easy as well to send the artists around with white
paint or chisels to fix any "incorrect" arms on furniture, paintings,
etc ;-) I imagine that if the baby on its way is a boy and certainly
heir eventual (the rules haven't actually been changed yet), he too
would also be granted a label of three points with something on the
central point (a golden acorn would be nice), but they will surely
wait until the eighteenth birthday. The Queen would have to be around
105. An immediate grant of arms would be nice to celebrate three
direct heirs.

Graham

2012-12-11 21:08:43 UTC

Permalink

X-No-Archive: Yes

16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?
Could be. Or a charge on one of the three labels. (See Prince William)

Or what if the baby is a girl and they get round to legislating
for her to be heiress apparent?

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm seems to suggest
that Edward VIII bore no arms until he became heir apparent.
Does anyone have access to a Burke's or Debrett's from between
1895 and 1910?

Charles

2012-12-12 01:24:29 UTC

Permalink

X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by Graham

Post by Charles
Is William a useful precedent? It seems only the direct line (heirs
eventual) of the British Royal Family use the label of three points.
It makes sense too because all the heir apparent has to do is drop the
charge. Makes it easy as well to send the artists around with white
paint or chisels to fix any "incorrect" arms on furniture, paintings,
etc ;-) I imagine that if the baby on its way is a boy and certainly
heir eventual (the rules haven't actually been changed yet), he too
would also be granted a label of three points with something on the
central point (a golden acorn would be nice), but they will surely
wait until the eighteenth birthday. The Queen would have to be around
105. An immediate grant of arms would be nice to celebrate three
direct heirs.

Or what if the baby is a girl and they get round to legislating
for her to be heiress apparent?

Then I say she ought to be treated as a male would be now and still be
given a label of three points (with a central charge, an acorn like I
suggested). Otherwise I feel a girl should get a label of seven points
or just bear her father's arms on the lozenge.

Post by Graham
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm seems to suggest
that Edward VIII bore no arms until he became heir apparent.
Does anyone have access to a Burke's or Debrett's from between
1895 and 1910?

Would be interested to see what anyone comes up with.

Charles

Charles

2012-12-10 17:21:36 UTC

Permalink

X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by Graham
I realise that this has probably been done before.
Usual For what it's worth applies re wikipediahttp://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm
gives the marks of cadency which have been specifically assigned to
members of the Royal Family other than the Sovereign. Here is a list
of them (and any spouses) in succession order. See alsohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sodacan/British_Royal_Armorial
NB that I have no connection with this user.
1. Charles, Prince of Wales (b. 1948)
--- --- --- (granted 1958):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Charles,_Prince_of_...
[Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (granted 17th July 2005)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Camilla,_Duchess_of...]
2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
--- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug 2000)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Ca...
(cf. the version athttp://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)
[Catherine, Duchess of Cambridgehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Catherine,_Duchess_...]
3. Henry (b. 1984)
scallop --- scallop --- scallop (granted 10 Aug 2002)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Henry_of_Wales.svg
4. Andrew, duke of York 1986 (b. 1960)
--- anchor --- (granted 1963)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Andrew,_Duke_of_Yor...
5. Beatrice (b. 1988)
bee pr. --- bee pr. --- bee pr. (granted 18 Jul 2006)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Beatrice_of_York.svg
6. Eugenie (b. 1990)
thistle pr. --- thistle pr. --- thistle pr. (granted Jul 2008)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Eugenie_of_York.svg
7. Edward, Earl of Wessex 1999 (b. 1964)
--- rose --- (i.e., a Tudor Rose) (granted 18 Jun 1983)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Edward,_Earl_of_Wes...
[Sophie, Countess of Wessex (Were the arms granted to her or to her
father?)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sophie,_Countess_of...]

From what I understand, the arms were a grant to her father and are a
version of arms that had been assumed by an ancestor some two
centuries earlier. Had they been granted to Sophie herself or if
Sophie were a heraldic heiress, I believe she would have born the arms
as an escutcheon over her husband's rather than impaled as they are.

Post by Graham
8. James, Viscount Severn (b. 2007)
It remains to be seen if he will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2025

I hope that he will be. Maybe a label of five points with a rose (like
his father's) on points 1, 3, and 5.

Post by Graham
9. Louise (b. 2003)
It remains to be seen if she will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2021

I never understood why princesses didn't just bear the arms of their
fathers, since the arms aren't normally hereditary unless granted to a
grandchild anyway.

Post by Graham
10. Anne, Princess Royal, formerly Mrs Mark Philips (b. 1950)
cross heart cross (granted 1962)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Anne,_the_Princess_...
Is it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format?
Does Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence bear arms?

Perhaps if she chooses to bear her arms alone, or has no choice to (I
don't know if Sir Timothy is armigerous). Question for the real
experts, which I am not.

Post by Graham
11. Peter Phillips (b. 1977)
Differenced version of the arms granted to his grandfather in 1973http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arms_of_Peter_Phillips.svg
How would the arms of his daughters Savannah (12) and Isla (13) be
shown? Their father's arms (complete with label) on a lozenge?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency
‘Daughters have no special brisures, and use their father's arms on a
lozenge. This is because English heraldry has no requirement that
women's arms be unique.’
[Autumn Phillips - does she bear arms?]

You are right about the arms of Peter's daughters. They would bear the
same arms as their father, on a lozenge (which I despise because of
how cramped they usually look; I much prefer an oval or cartouche) and
the label/brisure would change as their father's does. I don't know
about Mrs. Philips.

Post by Graham
14. Zara Tindall (b. 1981)
Differenced version of the arms granted to her grandfather in 1973http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Zara_Phillips_(Vari...
Did her arms change in any way on her marriage to Mike Tindall? Does
he bear arms?

Zara Philips bears the plain arms of her father (which were the plain
arms of her grandfather) on a lozenge (apparently). Hers are not
differenced. I do not know about Mr. Tindall.

Post by Graham
15. Viscount Linley
Differenced version of the arms granted to his fatherhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viscount_Linley.svg
Why do his personal arms have quarterings of his mother’s, when e.g.
Peter Phillips’ do not?
[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those
of her father the Earl of Harrington?http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-...]

I think there was a decision made sometime after Viscount Linley was
born that the arms of children of the sovereign were clarified as not
being considered hereditary but that arms granted to male-line
grandchildren would be. He's likely just grandfathered in.

Post by Graham
16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?

I contend they ought to be his father's exact arms with a label of
three points overall. If his father didn't have the royal quartering
Charles would have his grandfather's arm with a label of five points.

Post by Graham
17. Hon Margarita Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be her arms? Her father’s in a lozenge?

Yes, they would be her father's on a lozenge. Again, pretty cramped
though...

Post by Graham
18. Lady Sarah Chatto
Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?

Yes, of course.

Post by Graham
How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?
Presumably this would depend on whether their father is armigerous?
[Daniel Chatto - does he bear arms?]

Only if their father was armigerous. As their mother is not a heraldic
heiress (she has a brother), they are not entitled to quarter her
arms.

One question I have, but am not sure about, is weather the children of
a heraldic heiress and a non-armigerous father are entitled to their
maternal grandfather's arms. I think that one needs arms to "attach"
these inheritances to or one doesn't bear them at all.

Charles von Hamm

Tim Powys-Lybbe

2012-12-11 01:59:23 UTC

Permalink

On 10 Dec at 17:21, Charles <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip for brevity>

Post by Charles
One question I have, but am not sure about, is weather the children of
a heraldic heiress and a non-armigerous father are entitled to their
maternal grandfather's arms. I think that one needs arms to "attach"
these inheritances to or one doesn't bear them at all.

My 3 Gt-grandmother was, in her issue, a heraldic heiress.
Unfortunately she married a non-armigerous chap and both of them died
early but leaving a sole surviving heir in their daughter, my
gt-gt-grandmother. G-G-GM eventually succeeded to her gt-uncle's estate
(he dsp) on a name and arms clause. But she had no arms, nor, in his
turn did her husband. The strategem to resolve this was for her
husband, of Scottish extraction, to obtain a grant of arms in the Lyon
Court. Then they advanced on the College of arms and got a royal
licence to quarter his new arms with those of his wife's maternal
grandfather and they could inherit. The husband, not being of his
wife's blood, had to put a canton on the quarter for his wife's family,
but the RL explicitly said that the children of this marriage did not
have that canton on their arms. (The transcription of the RL by the
herald, with the odd obvious error such as 'Guntrotter' is here
<http://powys.org/lge/royal_licences/trotter.pdf>.)

I queried this with a herald, after I had got hold of the text of the
RL, and he said that the kings of arms were all-powerful and could break
any rules they liked.

The Lyon Office was slightly suprised when I explained the whole story
to them.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ***@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Graham

2012-12-11 22:23:52 UTC

Permalink

Snip

Post by Graham
2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
--- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug 2000)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Ca...
(cf. the version athttp://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)

Thanks to all who replied. Does anyone know the answer to the
question about William's helm above?

Larry Slight

2012-12-12 14:25:43 UTC

Permalink

The only suggestion I have is that being in the direct line of succession
the helm is used. I realize that may not be the reason but Prince Charles'
coat also uses a helm whereas Prince Andrew, Prince Edward and Prince Harry
do not.

Larry

Post by Graham

Snip

Post by Graham
2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
--- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug
2000)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Ca...
(cf. the version athttp://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)

Thanks to all who replied. Does anyone know the answer to the
question about William's helm above?

Alex Maxwell Findlater

2012-12-12 12:27:09 UTC

Permalink

Just the components which the artist/commissioner chose to include or not.

Charles

2012-12-13 03:39:57 UTC

Permalink

<snip>

Adding to the long list you provided, I wonder what the arms of young
Lord Culloden (Xan Windsor) will eventually be. Apparently, his
paternal grandmother is a heraldic heiress. His mother has no brothers
but her father is still alive. Lord Ulster must have quarterly 1 & 4
his father's arms (the royal arms with a label of five points cross-
lion-cross-lion-cross) and quarterly 2 & 3 his mother's (Henriksen).

Would Lord Culloden, after the death of his maternal grandfather, bear
quarterly 1 & 4 all of the above (quarterly UK differenced and
Henriksen) and 2 &3 Booth?

Charles

2012-12-13 03:43:04 UTC

Permalink

X-No-Archive: Yes