Ashmole tabard oddity

[Basil D]

Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most for the
Ashmolean Museum. I found a painting of him in his tabard:
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/

(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)

Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!

Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer. Or was
there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of England &
France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first possiblity most
likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but I'm no antiquarian. So,
I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least, informed speculation. ;-)

Thank you for your time.

[3ARwun]

Post by Basil D
Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most for the
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/
(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)
Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!
Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer. Or was
there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of England &
France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first possiblity most
likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but I'm no antiquarian. So,
I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least, informed speculation. ;-)
Thank you for your time.

perhaps it's not an issue of the banner modern or ancient, but the arms royal looking like france modern, even in times before the banner changed to france modern as in https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fr_mon.html

[Basil D]

Post by 3ARwun

Post by Basil D
Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most for
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/

(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)

Post by 3ARwun

Post by Basil D
Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!
Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer. Or
was there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of
England & France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first
possiblity most likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but
I'm no antiquarian. So, I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least,
informed speculation. ;-)
Thank you for your time.

perhaps it's not an issue of the banner modern or ancient, but the arms royal looking
like france modern, even in times before the banner changed to france modern as in
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fr_mon.html

Um, no. The problem with the cited painting is that the first grand quarter has England
and France Modern quartered, which is the expected and (I've always read) correct
arrangement, but the fourth grand quarter has them per fess, which I've never seen
anywhere else.

[3ARwun]

Post by Basil D

Post by 3ARwun

Post by Basil D
Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most for
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/

(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)

Post by 3ARwun

Post by Basil D
Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!
Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer. Or
was there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of
England & France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first
possiblity most likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but
I'm no antiquarian. So, I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least,
informed speculation. ;-)
Thank you for your time.

perhaps it's not an issue of the banner modern or ancient, but the arms royal looking
like france modern, even in times before the banner changed to france modern as in
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fr_mon.html

Um, no. The problem with the cited painting is that the first grand quarter has England
and France Modern quartered, which is the expected and (I've always read) correct
arrangement, but the fourth grand quarter has them per fess, which I've never seen
anywhere else.

perhaps I mistook your question? I thought your 'issue" was with the tabard showing France modern isntead of France ancient in the time period...but it appears your issue was more about WHERE, not whether france modern was displayed?

[Basil D]

On 4/23/2018 9:50 PM, 3ARwun wrote:
{snip}

Post by 3ARwun
perhaps I mistook your question? I thought your 'issue" was with the tabard showing
France modern isntead of France ancient in the time period...but it appears your issue
was more about WHERE, not whether france modern was displayed?

Yes, that's it. The "per fess" arrangement was what astonished me.

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Basil D
Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most for the
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/
(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)
Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!
Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer. Or was
there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of England &
France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first possiblity most
likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but I'm no antiquarian. So,
I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least, informed speculation. ;-)
Thank you for your time.

Have a look at illustrations of other old tabards, e.g. at the V&A museum, or the 16-c. illuminated manuscript of Thomas Hawley, Clarenceux (Peter Gwynn-Jones, The Art of Heraldry (1998) p 37). These show the full royal arms of the time displayed on the body of the tabard, but the sleeves are decorated with individual quarters, either on their own, or arranged to fit the sleeves’ shape rather than the heraldic rules.

Peter Howarth

[Peter Howarth]

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Basil D
Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most for the
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/
(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)
Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!
Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer. Or was
there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of England &
France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first possiblity most
likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but I'm no antiquarian. So,
I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least, informed speculation. ;-)
Thank you for your time.

Have a look at illustrations of other old tabards, e.g. at the V&A museum, or the 16-c. illuminated manuscript of Thomas Hawley, Clarenceux (Peter Gwynn-Jones, The Art of Heraldry (1998) p 37). These show the full royal arms of the time displayed on the body of the tabard, but the sleeves are decorated with individual quarters, either on their own, or arranged to fit the sleeves’ shape rather than the heraldic rules.
Peter Howarth

Having looked further, and in particular at Sir Anthony Wagner's Heralds and Ancestors (1978), I take back (most of) my previous post. Thomas Hawley, Clarenceux, who appears twice in Gwynn-Jones's book, is the only example I can find where the sleeves don't match exactly the body of the tabard. Since all of Wagner's examples do what we expect, I suggest that the painting of Ashmole got it wrong. Quite often, the artist paid to paint the portrait only bothered with the face and hands, leaving the clothes and background to be finished by an apprentice.

Peter Howarth

[Basil D]

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Basil D
Elias Ashmole was Windsor Herald from 1660-1675, though he's better known to most
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/shop/images/ashmole-elias-windsor-herald-1660-1675/

(There are larger copies, but that's the only one in color I have found)

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Peter Howarth

Post by Basil D
Note the fourth quarter of the sleeve: Per fess England and France Modern!
Does anyone know if this is an error by the artist, or by the tailor/embroiderer.
Or was there a time when Great Britain's coat of arms had different arrangements of
England & France in the first and fourth quarters? Frankly, I think the first
possiblity most likely, the second not impossible, and the third preposterous, but
I'm no antiquarian. So, I turn to you all, in hopes of an answer---or at least,
informed speculation. ;-)
Thank you for your time.

Have a look at illustrations of other old tabards, e.g. at the V&A museum, or the
16-c. illuminated manuscript of Thomas Hawley, Clarenceux (Peter Gwynn-Jones, The Art
of Heraldry (1998) p 37). These show the full royal arms of the time displayed on
the body of the tabard, but the sleeves are decorated with individual quarters,
either on their own, or arranged to fit the sleeves’ shape rather than the heraldic
rules.
Peter Howarth

Having looked further, and in particular at Sir Anthony Wagner's Heralds and Ancestors
(1978), I take back (most of) my previous post. Thomas Hawley, Clarenceux, who appears
twice in Gwynn-Jones's book, is the only example I can find where the sleeves don't
match exactly the body of the tabard. Since all of Wagner's examples do what we
expect, I suggest that the painting of Ashmole got it wrong. Quite often, the artist
paid to paint the portrait only bothered with the face and hands, leaving the clothes
and background to be finished by an apprentice.
Peter Howarth

I suspect you are correct, and Cornelius Neve, or (more likely) one of his underlings,
goofed. Interestingly, the front of the tabard is so shadowed on the wearer's left, that I
can't be sure if *that* fourth grand quarter is quarterly or per fess.

Odd, all the way around. :-/


~BasilD