Discussion:
early private grant of arms (England): Mackworth, 1404
(too old to reply)
Nathaniel Taylor
2008-04-03 03:39:20 UTC
Permalink
I am researching the Mackworth family of Rutland and Shropshire, who
descend from Thomas Mackworth of Derby, who with his brother John (a
canon of Lincoln cathedral) was granted arms privately by John Touchet,
lord Audley, in 1404. I was curious about the phenomenon of early
private grants of arms until I found the excellent set of examples put
together by Sebastian Nelson at:

http://verysleepy.itgo.com/private.htm

(mind the popups; and see also here:)

http://verysleepy.itgo.com/grants.htm


The original of the Mackworth grant of 1404 was in the possession of the
Mackworth baronets of Normanton (Rutland) at the time of the Visitation
of Rutland of 1681-2. It is published with that visitation in Pubs.
Harleian Soc., v. 73 (1921), pp. 12-13. I give the text below:

========

Taken from the original in the custody of Sr Tho: Mackworth of Normanton
in Com: Rutland Bart. 30 July 1681. By me Gregory King Rouge Dragon.

A tous ceulx qui ces lettres verront ou orront Johan Tochet Sire
Daudeley Salus. Savoir vous faisons que nous per consideracion que nos
treschiers et bienames John Macworth et Thomas Macworth son frere sont
estraits de vons et vaillants gens, et aussi pour le bon service que
leurs Ancestres ont fait a nos Ancestres, nous voudrions leement fere
que purroit honurer et avancer leurs estats si avons en avancement et
honnour des estats des ditz John et Thomas lour donne parcelle de nos
Armes Daudeley et de Tochet, a avoir et porter ovec certeines
differences comes pcert [?] per un escochun dessoubs paintes les colours
Sable et ermeyn partes et endentes ovec un cheveron de Goules frettes
dor de les Armes Daudeley; et une creste, cestassavoir une eele gest per
celle de nostre Creste Daudeley, de quele ele les plumes ferront des
Sable et dermeyn. A avoir et porter les dices armes ovec autielx
differences come lour semble mieux affaire hors de mesmes les Armes a
eux et a leurs heirs de nous et de nos heirs piw [?] tousjours sans
empeschement de nous ou de nos heirs quiconques per le temps avenir. En
tesmoignance de quele chose a icestes nos presentes tres avons fait
mettre nostre seal Donne soubs nostre Seal a nostre Manoir de Marketon
le primier jour Daugst Lan du grace Mile quatre Cents quart.

========

[I have expanded some of the abbreviations left in the printed edition;
but my question marks are for things as printed by the editor which I
don't understand and perhaps he didn't either, or Gregory King didn't.]

[illustrations in the edition: 1. a sketch of the arms 'dessoubs
paintes'; 2. the seal of the grantor]

This edition draws from Gregory King's text in the Visitation notebook,
CoA MS K. 1, p. 249; with noted variants in what I assume is a copy of
the visitation, BL MS Harley 1410, fo. 43.

Question: Is there any chance that this original grant, as held by the
Mackworths of Normanton in 1681, survives and has been described,
transcribed, or even photographed elsewhere?

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Turenne
2008-04-03 21:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Is this of any interest?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Copper-plate-Engraving-of-A-Coat-of-Arms-MACKWORTH-1724_W0QQitemZ7407605523QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10164QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Richard Lichten
Turenne
2008-04-03 21:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Or this?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA154&lpg=RA1-PA154&dq=coat+of+arms+mackworth&source=web&ots=kpds03P0vj&sig=8a3VPYXzkC1GZ6iyRgq3aVnnOok&hl=en

Richard L
Nathaniel Taylor
2008-04-04 03:11:10 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Turenne
Or this?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA154&lpg=RA1-PA154&dq=
coat+of+arms+mackworth&source=web&ots=kpds03P0vj&sig=8a3VPYXzkC1GZ6iyRgq3aVnnO
ok&hl=en
Thanks for both these. I'm well aware of the genealogy of the various
branches of the family including the Normanton baronets and this
Bulkeley Mackworth (of the Betton Strange line), though it's nice to
have this 1771 baronetage from google books!

I hadn't noticed before, but hope to pin down the change to the chevron
in the arms of the Betton Strange branch (who later produced the
Glamorganshire Mackworth baronets), as well as the added cock crest.
Some Shropshire antiquarian MSS also reverse the ermine and sable halves
of the field, but probably simply in error.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Nathaniel Taylor
2008-04-04 04:40:09 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Turenne
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Copper-plate-Engraving-of-A-Coat-of-Arms-MACKWORTH-1724_
W0QQitemZ7407605523QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10164QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.
l1262
I should add that I put the engraving of the 'original' Mackworth arms
on my blog here:

http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/146

with the text (already posted), as printed in the Visitation of Rutland,
1681. You can contrast the chevron and crest with the 18th-century
arms of Bulkeley Mackworth of Betton Strange, Salop, linked above.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Derek Howard
2008-04-04 08:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Copper-plate-Engraving-of-A-Coat-of-Arms-MACKWO...
W0QQitemZ7407605523QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10164QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m1­53.
l1262
I should add that I put the engraving of the 'original' Mackworth arms
<http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/146>
with the text (already posted), as printed in the Visitation of Rutland,
1681.   You can contrast the chevron and crest with the 18th-century
arms of Bulkeley Mackworth of Betton Strange, Salop, linked above.
Thanks for this interesting find. Unfortunately neither de G Birch's
catalogue of seals in
the BM nor Ellis' catalogues of seals in the PRO contain any seal for
John Touchet, lord
Audley to compare with King's drawing of the alleged grantor's seal.

The wording of the preamble and warranty clauses as well as the
requirements for
differences sound much more mid-16th century than early 15th century,
despite the misspellings. It is a pity we cannot check the original
handwriting.

Derek Howard
Nathaniel Taylor
2008-04-04 12:18:21 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Derek Howard
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Copper-plate-Engraving-of-A-Coat-of-Arms-MACKWO...
W0QQitemZ7407605523QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10164QQcmdZViewItemQQ
trksidZp1742.m1­53.
l1262
I should add that I put the engraving of the 'original' Mackworth arms
<http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/146>
with the text (already posted), as printed in the Visitation of Rutland,
1681.   You can contrast the chevron and crest with the 18th-century
arms of Bulkeley Mackworth of Betton Strange, Salop, linked above.
Thanks for this interesting find. Unfortunately neither de G Birch's
catalogue of seals in
the BM nor Ellis' catalogues of seals in the PRO contain any seal for
John Touchet, lord
Audley to compare with King's drawing of the alleged grantor's seal.
The wording of the preamble and warranty clauses as well as the
requirements for
differences sound much more mid-16th century than early 15th century,
despite the misspellings. It is a pity we cannot check the original
handwriting.
Oh: I did not suspect it was a forgery! That is an extremely interesting
idea. Can you elaborate on the formulae which you see as consistent
with later styles, with examples? I will review the examples in
Sebastian Nelson's page of 14th-century private grants as well.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Nathaniel Taylor
2008-04-04 17:13:13 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
Post by Derek Howard
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Copper-plate-Engraving-of-A-Coat-of-Arms-MACKWO...
W0QQitemZ7407605523QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10164QQcmdZViewItemQQ
trksidZp1742.m1­53.
l1262
I should add that I put the engraving of the 'original' Mackworth arms
<http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/146>
with the text (already posted), as printed in the Visitation of Rutland,
1681.   You can contrast the chevron and crest with the 18th-century
arms of Bulkeley Mackworth of Betton Strange, Salop, linked above.
Thanks for this interesting find. Unfortunately neither de G Birch's
catalogue of seals in
the BM nor Ellis' catalogues of seals in the PRO contain any seal for
John Touchet, lord
Audley to compare with King's drawing of the alleged grantor's seal.
The wording of the preamble and warranty clauses as well as the
requirements for
differences sound much more mid-16th century than early 15th century,
despite the misspellings. It is a pity we cannot check the original
handwriting.
Oh: I did not suspect it was a forgery! That is an extremely interesting
idea. Can you elaborate on the formulae which you see as consistent
with later styles, with examples?
One thing I will point out is that the allusion to differencing does not
refer to the brothers: it is rather that the new Mackworth arms are to
be borne "ovec certeines differences" from the Audley arms (gules, a
fret or): so the charge on the chevron gules fretty or on the Mackworth
arms is clearly derivative. The coat is also reminiscent of a Touchet
coat, ermine a chevron gules, which the grantor could also have had in
mind--though I'm not sure precisely how the Touchet bearers of this coat
mentioned in Foster are related to the grantor here. This sort of
'feudal' derivation of a man's arms from his lord was I think an
authentic practice still in 1404; the grant is not anachronistically
attempting to impose differencing between the grantees.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Turenne
2008-04-04 19:16:35 UTC
Permalink
I believe that the Heathcote, Finch and Noel families were associated
with Normanton. All the families' coat of arms incorporated an
'ermine' tincture. Could this have any bearing on Mackworth's choice
of arms?

Richard Lichten
Nathaniel Taylor
2008-04-04 19:23:31 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Turenne
I believe that the Heathcote, Finch and Noel families were associated
with Normanton. All the families' coat of arms incorporated an
'ermine' tincture. Could this have any bearing on Mackworth's choice
of arms?
No: this grant was a generation before the marriage that moved the M
ackworths to Rutland.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Derek Howard
2008-04-06 17:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
Post by Derek Howard
Post by Nathaniel Taylor
In article
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Copper-plate-Engraving-of-A-Coat-of-Arms-MACKWO...
W0QQitemZ7407605523QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10164QQcmdZViewItemQQ
trksidZp1742.m1­53.
l1262
I should add that I put the engraving of the 'original' Mackworth arms
<http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/146>
with the text (already posted), as printed in the Visitation of Rutland,
1681.   You can contrast the chevron and crest with the 18th-century
arms of Bulkeley Mackworth of Betton Strange, Salop, linked above.
Thanks for this interesting find. Unfortunately neither de G Birch's
catalogue of seals in
the BM nor Ellis' catalogues of seals in the PRO contain any seal for
John Touchet, lord
Audley to compare with King's drawing of the alleged grantor's seal.
The wording of the preamble and warranty clauses as well as the
requirements for
differences sound much more mid-16th century than early 15th century,
despite the misspellings. It is a pity we cannot check the original
handwriting.
Oh: I did not suspect it was a forgery! That is an extremely interesting
idea.  Can you elaborate on the formulae which you see as consistent
with later styles, with examples?
One thing I will point out is that the allusion to differencing does not
refer to the brothers: it is rather that the new Mackworth arms are to
be borne "ovec certeines differences" from the Audley arms (gules, a
fret or): so the charge on the chevron gules fretty or on the Mackworth
arms is clearly derivative.  The coat is also reminiscent of a Touchet
coat, ermine a chevron gules, which the grantor could also have had in
mind--though I'm not sure precisely how the Touchet bearers of this coat
mentioned in Foster are related to the grantor here.  This sort of
'feudal' derivation of a man's arms from his lord was I think an
authentic practice still in 1404; the grant is not anachronistically
attempting to impose differencing between the grantees.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I included some 16th century preambles in a post here on 7 Jan 2000 in
a thread "Noblesse revisited" :
Message-ID: <***@skynet.be>
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry/msg/0a0f802d282ae743?
dmode=source>.

I shall try and dig out a selection of warranty clauses of various
dates.

Derek Howard

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