Discussion:
Portuguese Grants of Arms
(too old to reply)
s***@pacbell.net
2006-12-21 22:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Hello

I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
the 16th to the 19th centuries:

http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290

It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.

-Sebastian Nelson

***@gmail.com
p***@hotmail.com
2006-12-22 00:34:25 UTC
Permalink
A recent and related book that I can recommend is "Titulos e Brasoes
Sinais da Nobreza, Titulares Brasonados do Imperio Rio de Janeiro e Sao
Paulo" by Vera Lucia Bottrel Tostes, published in 1996. Vera is the
director of the National Historical Museum of Brazil.
Post by s***@pacbell.net
Hello
I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290
It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.
-Sebastian Nelson
professor
2006-12-23 12:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Merry Christmas,

The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.

Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by s***@pacbell.net
Hello
I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290
It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.
-Sebastian Nelson
k***@politik.dk
2006-12-27 18:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by professor
Merry Christmas,
The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.
Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Interesting. May I ask (just out of curiosity): Was this favour due to
your membership of VV or of SMW or both or neither?

Sincerely,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
professor
2006-12-28 00:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sir;

It was due in part to:

1. My GC in St. Michael of the Wing;
2. My KC of VV;
3. My dedication in donations, personal requests and restoring of
letters and documents for HRH and St. Michael;
4. My former position as American Representative for the Foreign
Delegation of St. Michael; and
5. My help in arranging several exchanges between the Portuguese and
other Royal and Imperial Houses.

Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by k***@politik.dk
Post by professor
Merry Christmas,
The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.
Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Interesting. May I ask (just out of curiosity): Was this favour due to
your membership of VV or of SMW or both or neither?
Sincerely,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
k***@politik.dk
2006-12-31 16:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by professor
Dear Sir;
1. My GC in St. Michael of the Wing;
2. My KC of VV;
3. My dedication in donations, personal requests and restoring of
letters and documents for HRH and St. Michael;
4. My former position as American Representative for the Foreign
Delegation of St. Michael; and
5. My help in arranging several exchanges between the Portuguese and
other Royal and Imperial Houses.
Thank you. Do you have any information as to how long such favours
have been given and how many recipients there are?

Best wishes,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard

PS. Happy New Year to all of you rec.heralds out there!
s***@hotmail.co.uk
2007-01-07 14:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Joseph McMillan
2007-01-07 17:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Heraldry is
liberalised in Portugal since 1910, but Heraldry pertaining Portuguese
Nobility is regulated by an institution called INP-INSTITUTO DA NOBREZA
PORTUGUESA and by ANHP-ASSOCIAÇÃO DA NOBREZA HISTORICA DE PORTUGAL.
All Arms Grants issued are indeed issued by these two institutions and
ONLY by these two institutions and ONLY renew existing Arms Grants.
Neither of them issues new grants, least of all grants to foreign
armigers, as this falls out of their scope of activity.
Could you say a bit more about the effects of liberalization? Is it at
all common for Portuguese since 1910 to adopt arms on their own? Are
there any legal procedures permitting registration of new arms, as
opposed to the INP and ANHP process you describe for existing arms of
noble families? And what is the term in Portuguese for the documents
issued by the INP and AHNP?

There is little information in English about Portuguese heraldry, and
what there is often seems of dubious accuracy. I would appreciate any
information on the subject that you can share. Thanks.

Joseph McMillan
p***@hotmail.com
2007-01-07 19:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Shr. Guerreiro,

If you are familiar with the inner wokings of the Royal House, you
should be well aware that the Duke does not care for public discussions
of the honours that he grants, especially those discussions that take
place on the Intenet. I can assure you that the diplomas of the
Portuguese royal orders and the Cartas de Concessão de Armas issued by
the Duke are two seperate documents. As for the two associations, the
INP and the AHNP, they simply regulate the arms of their members. If
you want to continue this discussion it should be done so in private.

David
Dear Sir,
Being Portuguese and reasonably acquainted with these matters, I would
like to ask you if you could clarify some points, in the knowledge that
my enquiry is honourable and in good-faith.
It appears to me you received a Diploma from the Order of St Michael of
the Wing, not a proper Grant of Arms as such, since the Order issues
diplomas of membership, but is not known to issue Grants of Arms, since
this is not exactly an attribute of the Order.
You also mention a seal of Vila-Viçosa. This is a separate Dynastic
Order, so it is not clear what this seal is doing on a diploma from St
Michael of Wing.
I note that you mention [quote] "The document usually..." and further
down [quote] "As always...". I find this interesting because you appear
to be very familiar with other precedents, prior to your Diploma, or as
you call it, your Grant of Arms.
Upon satisfying my curiosity, I accidentally bumped into your website
(http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html), where I note the arms
granted by the Cronista Don Vicente de Cadenas are different from the
Arms depicted in the Portuguese Diploma. In the Portuguese Diploma,
your arms exhibit a Nobility Coronet. I would be most grateful if you
could clarify how this Coronet came about, the reason being that in
Portugal and indeed Portuguese Heraldry, Nobility Coronets and Crowns
are absolutely reserved for Historical Nobility of Portugal and never
awarded to foreign armigers. Naturally, your case may be the honourable
exception, but it would be useful to understand better what happened in
your particular arms.
There is a degree of confusion in regards to these issues for specific
reasons, which I can explain. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza is not known
to issue Grants of Arms and this is common knowledge among the vast
majority of Portuguese Monarchists. Furthermore, Heraldry is
liberalised in Portugal since 1910, but Heraldry pertaining Portuguese
Nobility is regulated by an institution called INP-INSTITUTO DA NOBREZA
PORTUGUESA and by ANHP-ASSOCIAÇÃO DA NOBREZA HISTORICA DE PORTUGAL.
All Arms Grants issued are indeed issued by these two institutions and
ONLY by these two institutions and ONLY renew existing Arms Grants.
Neither of them issues new grants, least of all grants to foreign
armigers, as this falls out of their scope of activity.
On the other hand, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Dynastic Orders of
Portugal (St Michael of the Wing, Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila
Viçosa and St. Isabel) do award Membership Diplomas in the various
grades pertaining the Orders, but these diplomas DO NOT confer Nobility
to anyone, and they DO NOT confirm valid Arms to Armigers who may
become members of these Orders. This is at the least, common knowledge
to any Portuguese Citizen, especially Portuguese Monarchists.
I would therefore be very keen to understand better your particular
situation, if you feel you would like to share it. As I said above, my
enquiry is in complete good faith and honourable. My only objective in
this discussion is to clarify and better understand the apparent
conflict between what is known in Portugal as genuine practice and what
happened with your Diploma, or Grant, as you appear to have it.
Yours sincerely
L Guerreiro
Joseph McMillan
2007-01-08 20:05:20 UTC
Permalink
If you want to continue this discussion it should be done so in private.
David,

Why in private? Mr. Lindgren publicly volunteered his account of his
own experience with what he understands to be a Portuguese grant of
arms and Mr. Guerreiro expressed concerns that this account did not
square with what he (Guerreiro) understood to be Portuguese heraldic
practice. Surely the rest of us have a valid interest in sharing
whatever conclusion is reached as to the ground truth of the matter.
What's so sensitive?

Regards,
Joseph McMillan
professor
2007-01-08 22:26:37 UTC
Permalink
The proper respect is to use Dr. Lindgren or Professor Lindgren. Please
learn the correct manner of address.I can tell you never attended any
university. I do have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of Style.

Carl--
Post by Joseph McMillan
If you want to continue this discussion it should be done so in private.David,
Why in private? Mr. Lindgren publicly volunteered his account of his
own experience with what he understands to be a Portuguese grant of
arms and Mr. Guerreiro expressed concerns that this account did not
square with what he (Guerreiro) understood to be Portuguese heraldic
practice. Surely the rest of us have a valid interest in sharing
whatever conclusion is reached as to the ground truth of the matter.
What's so sensitive?
Regards,
Joseph McMillan
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-01-08 22:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by professor
The proper respect is to use Dr. Lindgren or Professor Lindgren.
Please learn the correct manner of address.I can tell you never
attended any university. I do have a nice used copy of the Chicago
Manual of Style.
But we don't yet _know_ that you are either a doctor or a professor.
You could be an old fraud.

In any case, this is completely over the top for an internet newsgroup;
see the internet book of style...
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Joseph McMillan
2007-01-09 00:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by professor
The proper respect is to use Dr. Lindgren or Professor Lindgren. Please
learn the correct manner of address.I can tell you never attended any
university. I do have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of Style.
I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the ways to which you are accustomed.
I grew up and was educated in the United States, where "Mr." is a
perfectly respectful form of address to any adult male. I gather from
your self-description as "Professor Doctor" that you are a German
professing in Germany--something of a surprise given your C.V., but I
see no other explanation--so I guess you just aren't acquainted with
our ways.

I'm pleased that you have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of
Style. Please feel free to share with us anything useful it contains
on Portuguese heraldry.

Joseph McMillan
professor
2007-01-09 01:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

No actually in the USA, a medical doctor is a MD (DEGREE), and
physician (POSITION). Many people, though mistaken, believe that this
is the only doctor. In fact the term doctor originally meant "teacher",
not physician.

A PhD or eq. (DDS, DEd, DSc, etc) who is a full professor at a
university (over 5-7 years teaching) is a Professor Doctor and a person
who does not have a doctorate and teaches is merely Mr. and has the
position of instructor or teacher. Even in college, an instructor may
be neither professor nor possess a doctorate.

Please note the excellent article on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor - Professsor

Doctor:

1. a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon,
dentist, or veterinarian.
2. a person who has been awarded a doctor's degree: He is a Doctor of
Philosophy.
3. Doctor of the Church.
4. Older Slang. a cook, as at a camp or on a ship.
5. Machinery. any of various minor mechanical devices, esp. one
designed to remedy an undesirable characteristic of an automatic
process.
6. Angling. any of several artificial flies, esp. the silver doctor.
7. an eminent scholar and teacher

A Prof. Dr. means that the individual has between 8-12 years of college
and university and further teaches at a higher graduate level in a
university or Academy. He also may be called an academician.

I hope this has been of benefit to you. Sorry for the lack of
communication. I am Swedish American.

Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren, DEd

P. S. My father, age 84 and a transport engineer is "Mr." and very
proud of it.
Post by Joseph McMillan
Post by professor
The proper respect is to use Dr. Lindgren or Professor Lindgren. Please
learn the correct manner of address.I can tell you never attended any
university. I do have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of Style.I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the ways to which you are accustomed.
I grew up and was educated in the United States, where "Mr." is a
perfectly respectful form of address to any adult male. I gather from
your self-description as "Professor Doctor" that you are a German
professing in Germany--something of a surprise given your C.V., but I
see no other explanation--so I guess you just aren't acquainted with
our ways.
I'm pleased that you have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of
Style. Please feel free to share with us anything useful it contains
on Portuguese heraldry.
Joseph McMillan
Joseph McMillan
2007-01-09 01:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by professor
Hi,
No actually in the USA, a medical doctor is a MD (DEGREE), and
physician (POSITION). Many people, though mistaken, believe that this
is the only doctor. In fact the term doctor originally meant "teacher",
not physician.
I'm not mistaken at all. I never said someone with a non-medical
doctorate was not a doctor. I said it is respectful to address someone
as Mr. whether he holds such a doctorate or not. In fact, it is the
very old custom in the United States that only doctors in the medical
field and (oddly) clergymen holding doctorates of divinity are
addressed as "Dr." outside the workplace. This custom is increasingly
disregarded, and I have no strong feeling one way or the other on the
matter. I deal with Ph.D.'s professionally every day. Sometimes I
refer to them as "Dr.," sometimes as "Mr." or "Ms.", usually by first
name, and sometimes, when particularly annoyed, as "hey, you!" As a
rule, the more strongly one of them insists on being called "Dr.," the
less likely I am to oblige.
Post by professor
A PhD or eq. (DDS, DEd, DSc, etc)
DDS (doctor of dental surgery) is equivalent to a Ph.D? All the places
I know about, Ph. D. is a research doctorate. DDS is a professional
degree. Other than the fact that they are both doctorates, they are
not comparable at all.
Post by professor
who is a full professor at a
university (over 5-7 years teaching) is a Professor Doctor
Really? I'm passingly familiar with American universities. I attended
a few of them, work at one, have convened academic conferences a number
of times, and interact on a regular basis with senior faculty members
at various institutions of which you may have heard. In fact, I just
finished editing a book with two chapters by senior full professors at
the University of Michigan--one of them a department head--and just
commissioned a paper from a highly respected senior professor at NYU.
Never once have I run across an American academic who called himself
"professor doctor." Could you be so kind as to point out a university
of any repute where this is the custom?
Post by professor
Please note the excellent article on Wikipedia.
Which says "When appropriate, the joint title 'Professor Doktor', has
also been heard in the German system," and makes no further mention of
that formulation.

Joseph McMillan
professor
2007-01-09 02:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Hey you!

Ashamed you never learned anything!

Carl--
Post by Joseph McMillan
Post by professor
Hi,
No actually in the USA, a medical doctor is a MD (DEGREE), and
physician (POSITION). Many people, though mistaken, believe that this
is the only doctor. In fact the term doctor originally meant "teacher",
not physician.I'm not mistaken at all. I never said someone with a non-medical
doctorate was not a doctor. I said it is respectful to address someone
as Mr. whether he holds such a doctorate or not. In fact, it is the
very old custom in the United States that only doctors in the medical
field and (oddly) clergymen holding doctorates of divinity are
addressed as "Dr." outside the workplace. This custom is increasingly
disregarded, and I have no strong feeling one way or the other on the
matter. I deal with Ph.D.'s professionally every day. Sometimes I
refer to them as "Dr.," sometimes as "Mr." or "Ms.", usually by first
name, and sometimes, when particularly annoyed, as "hey, you!" As a
rule, the more strongly one of them insists on being called "Dr.," the
less likely I am to oblige.
Post by professor
A PhD or eq. (DDS, DEd, DSc, etc)DDS (doctor of dental surgery) is equivalent to a Ph.D? All the places
I know about, Ph. D. is a research doctorate. DDS is a professional
degree. Other than the fact that they are both doctorates, they are
not comparable at all.
Post by professor
who is a full professor at a
university (over 5-7 years teaching) is a Professor DoctorReally? I'm passingly familiar with American universities. I attended
a few of them, work at one, have convened academic conferences a number
of times, and interact on a regular basis with senior faculty members
at various institutions of which you may have heard. In fact, I just
finished editing a book with two chapters by senior full professors at
the University of Michigan--one of them a department head--and just
commissioned a paper from a highly respected senior professor at NYU.
Never once have I run across an American academic who called himself
"professor doctor." Could you be so kind as to point out a university
of any repute where this is the custom?
Post by professor
Please note the excellent article on Wikipedia.Which says "When appropriate, the joint title 'Professor Doktor', has
also been heard in the German system," and makes no further mention of
that formulation.
Joseph McMillan
professor
2007-01-09 01:35:49 UTC
Permalink
If you really want something on Portuguese heraldry, I would suggest
that you:

1. learn the language and
2. spend your money and purchase a book on Portuguese heraldry

But wait, you are supposed to be a heraldic scholar?

Carl--

P.S. Otherwise I fear you will remain in the dark. I do, however, teach
courses on heraldry and chivalry and for the price of entry at American
Military University, I would be certain to unfold these mysteries to
you.

Enough playing. I must get back to the real world of making money.
Post by Joseph McMillan
Post by professor
The proper respect is to use Dr. Lindgren or Professor Lindgren. Please
learn the correct manner of address.I can tell you never attended any
university. I do have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of Style.I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the ways to which you are accustomed.
I grew up and was educated in the United States, where "Mr." is a
perfectly respectful form of address to any adult male. I gather from
your self-description as "Professor Doctor" that you are a German
professing in Germany--something of a surprise given your C.V., but I
see no other explanation--so I guess you just aren't acquainted with
our ways.
I'm pleased that you have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of
Style. Please feel free to share with us anything useful it contains
on Portuguese heraldry.
Joseph McMillan
Guy Stair Sainty
2007-01-09 13:05:10 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>, Joseph
McMillan says...
Post by Joseph McMillan
If you want to continue this discussion it should be done so in private.
David,
Why in private? Mr. Lindgren publicly volunteered his account of his
own experience with what he understands to be a Portuguese grant of
arms and Mr. Guerreiro expressed concerns that this account did not
square with what he (Guerreiro) understood to be Portuguese heraldic
practice. Surely the rest of us have a valid interest in sharing
whatever conclusion is reached as to the ground truth of the matter.
What's so sensitive?
I agree; this information was volunteered by the recipient of the honour on this
forum - obviously we are interested in the details, including the whys, hows and
forms of the decrees. This is precisely what this forum is supposed to be about
(I thought).
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Verissimo
2007-01-11 12:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Yes, why in private? Could it be the case that Democracy means zero to
the Duke of Braganza?
It is unlikely, since HRH has just been the subject of a book entitled
"Dom Duarte e a Democracia", just launched in Lisbon, past November.
The bottom line in this discussion is clear. An armiger received an
honour and then came to the Internet publicising it. Anyone doing this
should know that questions and discussions would inevitably follow. I
suppose it is only a little price to pay for the vanity of showing off
honours on the Internet.
I agree that this is not clear, but my guess is that, in addition to
the Portuguese organisations already mentioned, it may be possible that
the Orders of SMW and VV also issue grants of arms. Whether this is
good practice or not, is up for debate, especially at a time when
Portuguese Monarchists, who presently make up about 25% of the
population, are increasingly demanding more professionalism,
transparency and public accountability. Discussions among Portuguese
Royalists in Portuguese Language forums show beyond doubt how
displeased people are about the state of the Royal House web presence
(www.casareal.co.pt), the inexistance of decent information on the
Internet, the overall feeling that the Duke's advisors are just not
good enough, that there is no strategy and at last, Royalist
organisations, which we call in Portugal Causa Real e Reais
Associações, are amateurish, apathetic and apprehensive because
annoying the Duke could mean falling out of grace, as was the case of a
Portuguese aristocrat, publicised in Portuguese Net Debate forums, who
apparently lost his title on the Duke's instructions because of
published comments about the Royal Family. This is all worrying and,
having as his straight male line ancestor, Dom Miguel, the last
absolutist King of Portugal, the Duke should be better advised to
embrace a more transparent and modern view of the World. In a proper
Democracy, anything is up for debate, including the Royal House of
Portugal. After 16 years of republican anarchy (1910-1926) and 48 years
of fascist dicatorship (until 1974), demanding a better Democratic
practice from the Royal House of Portugal really is not much to ask
for.
Having lived all my life in Portugal and being royalist, I read with
great interest debates (in Portuguese). Guerreiro, who took part in
this discussion at an earlier stage, is one of the sharpest, most
intelligent and articulate royal politics debaters I enjoy reading.
Together with others such as Garcia, these are the men who are making
all the difference in Portuguese Monarchy discussions. In their forum
(http://monarquia-portugal.forumactif.com/index.htm), they have shown
over time a true sense of what modern Democracy should mean in
Portugal.
I hope they carry on doing it, because they are doing a great job.
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
McMillan says...
Post by Joseph McMillan
If you want to continue this discussion it should be done so in private.
David,
Why in private? Mr. Lindgren publicly volunteered his account of his
own experience with what he understands to be aPortuguesegrant of
armsand Mr. Guerreiro expressed concerns that this account did not
square with what he (Guerreiro) understood to bePortugueseheraldic
practice. Surely the rest of us have a valid interest in sharing
whatever conclusion is reached as to the ground truth of the matter.
What's so sensitive?I agree; this information was volunteered by the recipient of the honour on this
forum - obviously we are interested in the details, including the whys, hows and
forms of the decrees. This is precisely what this forum is supposed to be about
(I thought).
--
Guy Stair Saintywww.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
professor
2007-01-08 05:57:45 UTC
Permalink
And you are?

Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
Dear Sir,
Being Portuguese and reasonably acquainted with these matters, I would
like to ask you if you could clarify some points, in the knowledge that
my enquiry is honourable and in good-faith.
It appears to me you received a Diploma from the Order of St Michael of
the Wing, not a proper Grant of Arms as such, since the Order issues
diplomas of membership, but is not known to issue Grants of Arms, since
this is not exactly an attribute of the Order.
You also mention a seal of Vila-Viçosa. This is a separate Dynastic
Order, so it is not clear what this seal is doing on a diploma from St
Michael of Wing.
I note that you mention [quote] "The document usually..." and further
down [quote] "As always...". I find this interesting because you appear
to be very familiar with other precedents, prior to your Diploma, or as
you call it, your Grant of Arms.
Upon satisfying my curiosity, I accidentally bumped into your website
(http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html), where I note the arms
granted by the Cronista Don Vicente de Cadenas are different from the
Arms depicted in the Portuguese Diploma. In the Portuguese Diploma,
your arms exhibit a Nobility Coronet. I would be most grateful if you
could clarify how this Coronet came about, the reason being that in
Portugal and indeed Portuguese Heraldry, Nobility Coronets and Crowns
are absolutely reserved for Historical Nobility of Portugal and never
awarded to foreign armigers. Naturally, your case may be the honourable
exception, but it would be useful to understand better what happened in
your particular arms.
There is a degree of confusion in regards to these issues for specific
reasons, which I can explain. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza is not known
to issue Grants of Arms and this is common knowledge among the vast
majority of Portuguese Monarchists. Furthermore, Heraldry is
liberalised in Portugal since 1910, but Heraldry pertaining Portuguese
Nobility is regulated by an institution called INP-INSTITUTO DA NOBREZA
PORTUGUESA and by ANHP-ASSOCIAÇÃO DA NOBREZA HISTORICA DE PORTUGAL.
All Arms Grants issued are indeed issued by these two institutions and
ONLY by these two institutions and ONLY renew existing Arms Grants.
Neither of them issues new grants, least of all grants to foreign
armigers, as this falls out of their scope of activity.
On the other hand, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Dynastic Orders of
Portugal (St Michael of the Wing, Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila
Viçosa and St. Isabel) do award Membership Diplomas in the various
grades pertaining the Orders, but these diplomas DO NOT confer Nobility
to anyone, and they DO NOT confirm valid Arms to Armigers who may
become members of these Orders. This is at the least, common knowledge
to any Portuguese Citizen, especially Portuguese Monarchists.
I would therefore be very keen to understand better your particular
situation, if you feel you would like to share it. As I said above, my
enquiry is in complete good faith and honourable. My only objective in
this discussion is to clarify and better understand the apparent
conflict between what is known in Portugal as genuine practice and what
happened with your Diploma, or Grant, as you appear to have it.
Yours sincerely
L Guerreiro
Post by professor
Merry Christmas,
The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.
Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by s***@pacbell.net
Hello
I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290
It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.
-Sebastian Nelson
Sean J Murphy
2007-01-08 09:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by professor
And you are?
Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
I think we need to pass a rule here, to the effect that professors of
all kinds are not to be challenged or questioned in any way. ;-)

Sean Murphy
Turenne
2007-01-08 09:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean J Murphy
Post by professor
And you are?
Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
I think we need to pass a rule here, to the effect that professors of
all kinds are not to be challenged or questioned in any way. ;-)
Sean Murphy
Aah, don't say that, it was just getting interesting..

Richard Lichten
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-01-08 11:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean J Murphy
Post by professor
And you are?
Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
I think we need to pass a rule here, to the effect that professors of
all kinds are not to be challenged or questioned in any way. ;-)
But anyone can call themselves a professor. Further I believe that the
word 'professeur' has different meanings in different countries, with
some meanings being very exalted and others being bits of hacks.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
professor
2007-01-08 17:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Sean, I will be the first person to sign it. However, I will
have to send an electronic signature (smile).

Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by Sean J Murphy
Post by professor
And you are?
Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
I think we need to pass a rule here, to the effect that professors of
all kinds are not to be challenged or questioned in any way. ;-)
Sean Murphy
Graham Milne
2007-01-09 22:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Agreed.

Professor Baron Milne
Post by professor
And you are?
Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
I think we need to pass a rule here, to the effect that professors of all
kinds are not to be challenged or questioned in any way. ;-)
Sean Murphy
George Lucki
2007-01-09 23:46:19 UTC
Permalink
To return this to more heraldic content... perhaps folks who are
sentimentally attached to their academic ranks and titles might wish to see
these recognized in their armorial achievements?
What do you think of a doctoral hood and gown being used a manteau or a
doctoral cap or bonnet placed over a shield much in the way that feudal
barons use a cap of maintenance? Then we could distinguish the professor
from the baron, etc.
The inspiration might be Prof. D'Arcy Boulton's achievement
Loading Image... which includes his doctoral bonnet
under his helm (identifying the universities by their arms) and the badges
of a member of the Academie internationale d'heraldique, a fellow of the
Royal Heraldry Society of Canada and one other. Interestingly he also uses
his plant badges as quasi-supporters.
George Lucki
Post by Graham Milne
Agreed.
Professor Baron Milne
Post by professor
And you are?
Prof. Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science
I think we need to pass a rule here, to the effect that professors of all
kinds are not to be challenged or questioned in any way. ;-)
Sean Murphy
j***@fastmail.fm
2007-01-10 07:53:43 UTC
Permalink
The original thread was "Portuguese Grants of Arms"

I know of one noted Portuguese member connected with the former
Conselho de Nobreza who has completed a doctorate on the subject of
Portuguese heraldry.
He is also the author of a book (in two volumes) on Portuguese
heraldry.

He iis Dr Manual Artur Norton, Barao Sao Roque.
He lives is the Braga area.

He might bne able to throw some light on some of the aspects of
Prortuguese heraldry that have been raised in this thread.

John Jones

George Lucki wrote:> To return this to more heraldic content ...
j***@fastmail.fm
2007-01-10 08:37:31 UTC
Permalink
World Academy of Art and Science

Is this a private body?
Does it cover Portuguese heraldry in any detail, or this one oe of the
areas in which individual members are known for their proficiency?
Guy Stair Sainty
2007-01-11 14:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Lucki
To return this to more heraldic content... perhaps folks who are
sentimentally attached to their academic ranks and titles might wish to see
these recognized in their armorial achievements?
What do you think of a doctoral hood and gown being used a manteau or a
doctoral cap or bonnet placed over a shield much in the way that feudal
barons use a cap of maintenance? Then we could distinguish the professor
from the baron, etc.
The inspiration might be Prof. D'Arcy Boulton's achievement
http://heraldry.ca/arms/b/boulton.jpg which includes his doctoral bonnet
under his helm (identifying the universities by their arms) and the badges
of a member of the Academie internationale d'heraldique, a fellow of the
Royal Heraldry Society of Canada and one other. Interestingly he also uses
his plant badges as quasi-supporters.
George Lucki
What an elegant design!
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
George Lucki
2007-01-11 14:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
Post by George Lucki
To return this to more heraldic content... perhaps folks who are
sentimentally attached to their academic ranks and titles might wish to see
these recognized in their armorial achievements?
What do you think of a doctoral hood and gown being used a manteau or a
doctoral cap or bonnet placed over a shield much in the way that feudal
barons use a cap of maintenance? Then we could distinguish the professor
from the baron, etc.
The inspiration might be Prof. D'Arcy Boulton's achievement
http://heraldry.ca/arms/b/boulton.jpg which includes his doctoral bonnet
under his helm (identifying the universities by their arms) and the badges
of a member of the Academie internationale d'heraldique, a fellow of the
Royal Heraldry Society of Canada and one other. Interestingly he also uses
his plant badges as quasi-supporters.
George Lucki
What an elegant design!
D'Arcy is also the artist in this case.
George Lucki
Nathaniel Taylor
2007-01-11 15:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
Post by George Lucki
To return this to more heraldic content... perhaps folks who are
sentimentally attached to their academic ranks and titles might wish to see
these recognized in their armorial achievements?
What do you think of a doctoral hood and gown being used a manteau or a
doctoral cap or bonnet placed over a shield much in the way that feudal
barons use a cap of maintenance? Then we could distinguish the professor
from the baron, etc.
The inspiration might be Prof. D'Arcy Boulton's achievement
http://heraldry.ca/arms/b/boulton.jpg which includes his doctoral bonnet
under his helm (identifying the universities by their arms) and the badges
of a member of the Academie internationale d'heraldique, a fellow of the
Royal Heraldry Society of Canada and one other. Interestingly he also uses
his plant badges as quasi-supporters.
George Lucki
What an elegant design!
The third (sinister) badge, unless I'm mistaken, is from the arms of the
Committee on Heraldry of the New England Historic Genealogical Society,
of which he is a member.

Nat Taylor
(also a member of that Committee)

m***@gmail.com
2007-01-08 14:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sirs,

It could be added that Prof. Carl Edward Lindgrem considers himself
"Fidalgo Cavaleiro da Casa Real (A courtesy grant of nobility)" in its
webpage.

This is an honour conceded by the Head of State and I thought it was
never granted again after the revolution of October 5, 1910.

Since I legitimately descend through my strict male line from several
Fidalgos Cavaleiros da Casa Real (since 1675), I would appreciate if
you could explain how and when was this degree attributed, because I
would have the right to inscribe my name in the register.

Best regards

Miguel da Cunha
Dear Sir,
Being Portuguese and reasonably acquainted with these matters, I would
like to ask you if you could clarify some points, in the knowledge that
my enquiry is honourable and in good-faith.
It appears to me you received a Diploma from the Order of St Michael of
the Wing, not a proper Grant of Arms as such, since the Order issues
diplomas of membership, but is not known to issue Grants of Arms, since
this is not exactly an attribute of the Order.
You also mention a seal of Vila-Viçosa. This is a separate Dynastic
Order, so it is not clear what this seal is doing on a diploma from St
Michael of Wing.
I note that you mention [quote] "The document usually..." and further
down [quote] "As always...". I find this interesting because you appear
to be very familiar with other precedents, prior to your Diploma, or as
you call it, your Grant of Arms.
Upon satisfying my curiosity, I accidentally bumped into your website
(http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html), where I note the arms
granted by the Cronista Don Vicente de Cadenas are different from the
Arms depicted in the Portuguese Diploma. In the Portuguese Diploma,
your arms exhibit a Nobility Coronet. I would be most grateful if you
could clarify how this Coronet came about, the reason being that in
Portugal and indeed Portuguese Heraldry, Nobility Coronets and Crowns
are absolutely reserved for Historical Nobility of Portugal and never
awarded to foreign armigers. Naturally, your case may be the honourable
exception, but it would be useful to understand better what happened in
your particular arms.
There is a degree of confusion in regards to these issues for specific
reasons, which I can explain. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza is not known
to issue Grants of Arms and this is common knowledge among the vast
majority of Portuguese Monarchists. Furthermore, Heraldry is
liberalised in Portugal since 1910, but Heraldry pertaining Portuguese
Nobility is regulated by an institution called INP-INSTITUTO DA NOBREZA
PORTUGUESA and by ANHP-ASSOCIAÇÃO DA NOBREZA HISTORICA DE PORTUGAL.
All Arms Grants issued are indeed issued by these two institutions and
ONLY by these two institutions and ONLY renew existing Arms Grants.
Neither of them issues new grants, least of all grants to foreign
armigers, as this falls out of their scope of activity.
On the other hand, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Dynastic Orders of
Portugal (St Michael of the Wing, Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila
Viçosa and St. Isabel) do award Membership Diplomas in the various
grades pertaining the Orders, but these diplomas DO NOT confer Nobility
to anyone, and they DO NOT confirm valid Arms to Armigers who may
become members of these Orders. This is at the least, common knowledge
to any Portuguese Citizen, especially Portuguese Monarchists.
I would therefore be very keen to understand better your particular
situation, if you feel you would like to share it. As I said above, my
enquiry is in complete good faith and honourable. My only objective in
this discussion is to clarify and better understand the apparent
conflict between what is known in Portugal as genuine practice and what
happened with your Diploma, or Grant, as you appear to have it.
Yours sincerely
L Guerreiro
Post by professor
Merry Christmas,
The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.
Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by s***@pacbell.net
Hello
I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290
It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.
-Sebastian Nelson
j***@fastmail.fm
2007-01-08 16:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Regarding the Instituto da Nobreza Portuguesa (I.N.P.) I have the
following information, which might be a little out-of-date as far as
the committee or governing body is concerned.
The INP does not seem to have "members" per se, but rather people with
rights that are determined by the INP. However, I have no real
knowledge of the INP.

2004, mas com os seus estatutos publicados no "Diário da
República".

O Conselho de Nobreza (C.N.) 1945/2002 acabou por determinação
superior do Senhor D. Duarte Pio, Duque de Bragança. Em sua
substituição foi criado o Instituto da Nobreza Portuguesa (I.N.P.) em
2004, mas com os seus estatutos publicados no "Diário da
República".

O I.N.P. é, portanto, o segundo organismo para tratar de assuntos
relacionados com o direito nobiliárquico, mas criado com certas
diferenças estruturais do C.N. A primeira das quais é a sua
legalização à face da lei vigente, pelo que se vier a ser
necessário pode recorrer aos tribunais porque existe legalmente. O
C.N. órgão dependente directamente de S.A.R. nunca fora legalizado
porque o falecido Senhor D. Duarte Nuno, Duque de Bragança não se
submetia às leis republicanas. Este Senhor delegou completamente o seu
poder no C.N. e assim as responsabilidades nunca o poderiam atingir e,
contudo, existia um organismo a tratar dos assuntos do direito
nobiliárquicos reconhecido pelos Ministérios dos Negócios
Estrangeiros, do Interior e pelos tribunais entre outros.

Com a criação do I.N.P. S.A.R. o Senhor D. Duarte, Duque de Bragança
fica legal e oficialmente desligado da instituição que trata destes
assuntos. É evidente que só é nomeado para os respectivos cargos as
pessoas indigitadas por S.A.R.

O actual I.N.P. é constituído por cinco membros apenas e sem
quaisquer comissões satélites, os quais são: Marquês de Lavradio,
Dr. Jaime de Almeida (Presidente); Barão de Almeida Lima, Dr. Augusto
Ferreira do Amara (Vogal); Eng. António de Matos e Silva
(Secretário-Geral); Marquês da Fronteira, Dr. Fernando Mascarenhas
(Vogal); Conde de Nova Goa, D. Luís de Castro (Vogal).
p***@hotmail.com
2007-01-08 21:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Please note that the professor's document is dated after the suspension
of the Conselho de Nobreza but before the establishment of the
Instituto da Nobreza Portuguesa.
Post by j***@fastmail.fm
O Conselho de Nobreza (C.N.) 1945/2002 acabou por determinação
superior do Senhor D. Duarte Pio, Duque de Bragança. Em sua
substituição foi criado o Instituto da Nobreza Portuguesa (I.N.P.) em
2004, mas com os seus estatutos publicados no "Diário da
República".
O I.N.P. é, portanto, o segundo organismo para tratar de assuntos
relacionados com o direito nobiliárquico, mas criado com certas
diferenças estruturais do C.N. A primeira das quais é a sua
legalização à face da lei vigente, pelo que se vier a ser
necessário pode recorrer aos tribunais porque existe legalmente. O
C.N. órgão dependente directamente de S.A.R. nunca fora legalizado
porque o falecido Senhor D. Duarte Nuno, Duque de Bragança não se
submetia às leis republicanas. Este Senhor delegou completamente o seu
poder no C.N. e assim as responsabilidades nunca o poderiam atingir e,
contudo, existia um organismo a tratar dos assuntos do direito
nobiliárquicos reconhecido pelos Ministérios dos Negócios
Estrangeiros, do Interior e pelos tribunais entre outros.
Com a criação do I.N.P. S.A.R. o Senhor D. Duarte, Duque de Bragança
fica legal e oficialmente desligado da instituição que trata destes
assuntos. É evidente que só é nomeado para os respectivos cargos as
pessoas indigitadas por S.A.R.
O actual I.N.P. é constituído por cinco membros apenas e sem
quaisquer comissões satélites, os quais são: Marquês de Lavradio,
Dr. Jaime de Almeida (Presidente); Barão de Almeida Lima, Dr. Augusto
Ferreira do Amara (Vogal); Eng. António de Matos e Silva
(Secretário-Geral); Marquês da Fronteira, Dr. Fernando Mascarenhas
(Vogal); Conde de Nova Goa, D. Luís de Castro (Vogal).
Turenne
2007-01-08 21:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Please note that the professor's document is dated after the suspension
of the Conselho de Nobreza but before the establishment of the
Instituto da Nobreza Portuguesa.
Post by j***@fastmail.fm
O Conselho de Nobreza (C.N.) 1945/2002 acabou por determinação
superior do Senhor D. Duarte Pio, Duque de Bragança. Em sua
substituição foi criado o Instituto da Nobreza Portuguesa (I.N.P.) em
2004, mas com os seus estatutos publicados no "Diário da
República".
O I.N.P. é, portanto, o segundo organismo para tratar de assuntos
relacionados com o direito nobiliárquico, mas criado com certas
diferenças estruturais do C.N. A primeira das quais é a sua
legalização à face da lei vigente, pelo que se vier a ser
necessário pode recorrer aos tribunais porque existe legalmente. O
C.N. órgão dependente directamente de S.A.R. nunca fora legalizado
porque o falecido Senhor D. Duarte Nuno, Duque de Bragança não se
submetia às leis republicanas. Este Senhor delegou completamente o seu
poder no C.N. e assim as responsabilidades nunca o poderiam atingir e,
contudo, existia um organismo a tratar dos assuntos do direito
nobiliárquicos reconhecido pelos Ministérios dos Negócios
Estrangeiros, do Interior e pelos tribunais entre outros.
Com a criação do I.N.P. S.A.R. o Senhor D. Duarte, Duque de Bragança
fica legal e oficialmente desligado da instituição que trata destes
assuntos. É evidente que só é nomeado para os respectivos cargos as
pessoas indigitadas por S.A.R.
O actual I.N.P. é constituído por cinco membros apenas e sem
quaisquer comissões satélites, os quais são: Marquês de Lavradio,
Dr. Jaime de Almeida (Presidente); Barão de Almeida Lima, Dr. Augusto
Ferreira do Amara (Vogal); Eng. António de Matos e Silva
(Secretário-Geral); Marquês da Fronteira, Dr. Fernando Mascarenhas
(Vogal); Conde de Nova Goa, D. Luís de Castro (Vogal).
But anyone can call themselves a professor. Further I believe that the
word 'professeur' has different meanings in different countries, with
some meanings being very exalted and others being bits of hacks.
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'? Over here, with the exception of Oxbridge, it is
neccessary for the individual to hold a departmental Chair. When I was
at university I don't think I ever met a professor.

Richard Lichten
p***@hotmail.com
2007-01-08 22:39:58 UTC
Permalink
No this is not true, at least in my own experience as an university
student. In large US Universities, basic under graduate courses are
often taught by Instructors who are graduate students. In the US and
Canada, there are many types of professors: Assistant Professors,
Adjunct Professors, Visiting Professors, Distinguished Professors and
of course (Full) Professors.
Post by Turenne
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'? Over here, with the exception of Oxbridge, it is
neccessary for the individual to hold a departmental Chair. When I was
at university I don't think I ever met a professor.
Richard Lichten
Turenne
2007-01-08 23:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
No this is not true, at least in my own experience as an university
student. In large US Universities, basic under graduate courses are
often taught by Instructors who are graduate students. In the US and
Canada, there are many types of professors: Assistant Professors,
Adjunct Professors, Visiting Professors, Distinguished Professors and
of course (Full) Professors.
Post by Turenne
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'? Over here, with the exception of Oxbridge, it is
neccessary for the individual to hold a departmental Chair. When I was
at university I don't think I ever met a professor.
Richard Lichten
The proper respect is to use Dr. Lindgren or Professor Lindgren. Please
learn the correct manner of address.I can tell you never attended any
university. I do have a nice used copy of the Chicago Manual of Style.
With all due respect *you signed yourself* 'Prof. Dr. Lindgren'
earlier. Do you have the phrase 'over egging the pudding' in The
States?

Richard Lichten
James Dempster
2007-01-09 06:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'? Over here, with the exception of Oxbridge, it is
neccessary for the individual to hold a departmental Chair. When I was
at university I don't think I ever met a professor.
Certainly in the UK it is not neccessary for an individual to hold a
departmental chair in order to be a professor. In my time at
university (Aberdeen, early-mid 1980s) certain people in various
departments were given "personal" chairs so that they used the title
without being head of department.

As for never meeting a professor, that seems excessive. Even in my
first year I was taught by professors - three different ones in
psychology (though two were semi-retired). I recall how touched the
department head was at our reaction to her announcement that we were
her final class before retirement.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
Turenne
2007-01-09 11:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Dempster
Post by Turenne
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'? Over here, with the exception of Oxbridge, it is
neccessary for the individual to hold a departmental Chair. When I was
at university I don't think I ever met a professor.
Certainly in the UK it is not neccessary for an individual to hold a
departmental chair in order to be a professor. In my time at
university (Aberdeen, early-mid 1980s) certain people in various
departments were given "personal" chairs so that they used the title
without being head of department.
As for never meeting a professor, that seems excessive. Even in my
first year I was taught by professors - three different ones in
psychology (though two were semi-retired). I recall how touched the
department head was at our reaction to her announcement that we were
her final class before retirement.
James
James Dempster
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
I take your point about 'personal' Chairs. As far as my never meeting a
professor, I read Law, maybe there weren't too many professors knocking
about, or maybe as is more likely (it was the 70s) my memory has been
effected detrimentally by prolonged exposure to Young's Bitter when I
should have been at lectures:)

Richard L
p***@hotmail.com
2007-01-09 12:07:10 UTC
Permalink
One should remember that during the Vietnam War, many tens of thousands
of men avoided military service by continuing their advanced higher
education. The effect of this was that the US had very large numbers of
men with doctoral degrees of every type, many of whom sought careers in
the universities. I suppose that if the UK had a draft policy similar
to the US, most every lecture that you attended would have been given
by a holder of a doctoral degree.
Post by Turenne
Post by James Dempster
Post by Turenne
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'? Over here, with the exception of Oxbridge, it is
neccessary for the individual to hold a departmental Chair. When I was
at university I don't think I ever met a professor.
Certainly in the UK it is not neccessary for an individual to hold a
departmental chair in order to be a professor. In my time at
university (Aberdeen, early-mid 1980s) certain people in various
departments were given "personal" chairs so that they used the title
without being head of department.
As for never meeting a professor, that seems excessive. Even in my
first year I was taught by professors - three different ones in
psychology (though two were semi-retired). I recall how touched the
department head was at our reaction to her announcement that we were
her final class before retirement.
James
James Dempster
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.I take your point about 'personal' Chairs. As far as my never meeting a
professor, I read Law, maybe there weren't too many professors knocking
about, or maybe as is more likely (it was the 70s) my memory has been
effected detrimentally by prolonged exposure to Young's Bitter when I
should have been at lectures:)
Richard L
Guy Stair Sainty
2007-01-09 13:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
One should remember that during the Vietnam War, many tens of thousands
of men avoided military service by continuing their advanced higher
education. The effect of this was that the US had very large numbers of
men with doctoral degrees of every type, many of whom sought careers in
the universities. I suppose that if the UK had a draft policy similar
to the US, most every lecture that you attended would have been given
by a holder of a doctoral degree.
So one should consider that the majority of Professor Doctors were draft
dodgers? I would point out that the UK did have "national service" until 1960
and that British servicement post WWII were engaged in the occupation of Germany
and Austria, in India, Burma, what is now Pakistan and Ceylon (Sir Lianka), with
the British Mandate authority in Palestine, in the Korean War, the Malaysian
insurgency, the Aden rebellion and various actions in both West and East Africa.
I do not believe this led to any explosion in the number of grants of PhDs.

In my own experience of the holders of PhDs, there is a vast (and I mean really
vast) difference in the quality of the doctorate granted depending on the
institution which awarded it. I have interviewed a number of holders of Phds in
the fine arts who have written their theses on European paintings or sculpture
over the years and have been amazed at the astonishing ignorance displayed of
the discipline (history of art) in which the doctorate was awarded. While my
survey was completely unscientific, the differences between PhDs in any history
of art subjects awarded by most US universities (with the notable exception of
perhaps half a dozen universities such as Harvard, NY University Institute of
Fine Arts, and Columbia), and those awarded by the handful of UK institutions
which award PhDs in the history of art, suggests very different levels of
knowledge. While the US students knew very well the actual subject of their PhD
thesis, they were surprisingly poorly educated in the general subject of
European art.

This may be a peculiarity of the study of history of art and may not apply in
other disciplines; however I suspect that the relative quality of PhDs does
depend considerably on the institution which awards them. But is it really
necessary for those with advanced degrees to insist upon their use, whichever
institution awarded the degree or distinction? I know of several individuals who
are regulars on this forum and hold such advanced degrees but I do not see them
demanding any special form of address.

I have never thought that anyone holding a PhD should be given some special
respect when the subject on which they are writing is different from that of
their PhD thesis. As I recall from the time when Professor Dr Lindgren wrote a
series of ad hominem attacks on me on this forum, he referred then to his PhD
and it was not granted for any study of heraldry, particularly of Portuguese
heraldry.

Why should polite questions regarding the details of his awards not be
explained, since he was the one who volunteered the initial information here?
Why should the Portuguese questioner not be given a courteous public response to
his politely framed questions? I know very little about Portuguese heraldry and
the authority of the Crown, of royal institutions or of their post 1910
survivors to regulate arms and was reading this debate with considerable
interest for that very reason. I do not know of any other examples of the heads
of non-reigning houses granting arms, other than the special distinction granted
by the late Prince Rainier of the Two Sicilies (as claimant to the headship of
that House) to the late Achille Di Lorenzo. King Umberto II of Italy granted
arms along with new titles, but that practice ended with his death. Perhaps
Grand Dukes Kyrill and Wladimir of Russia granted arms with the handful of
titles thbey conferred, I do not know.

If Dom Duarte does not want these matters discussed (as Mr pritchard avers) then
perhaps he should ask the recipients not to publish them and request that they
keep their diplomas, etc, as confidential, private documents, whose existence
should remain such; it is not the responsibility of the participants on any
internet forum to agree to silence when publicity to the grant is given by the
recipient either here, on a personal web site, or any other register (such as
the Burke's Armorial register). Someone who publishes their achievements -
armorial or otherwise - can expect questions or comments. Why should these be
such a huge problem?
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Guye Pennington
2007-01-09 14:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Greetings, all! Guy, I am relatively confident that the Grand Duchess
of Russia has either conferred or recognized arms as a non-seated
royal, and I believe Prof. Stansilaw Dumin is instrumental in executing
that. I don't think it is unusual at all for a non-seated royal to
recognize arms, is it? As head of the royal family of Portugal,
wouldn't HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza have that authority?

Many thanks!
Guye
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
Post by p***@hotmail.com
One should remember that during the Vietnam War, many tens of thousands
of men avoided military service by continuing their advanced higher
education. The effect of this was that the US had very large numbers of
men with doctoral degrees of every type, many of whom sought careers in
the universities. I suppose that if the UK had a draft policy similar
to the US, most every lecture that you attended would have been given
by a holder of a doctoral degree.
So one should consider that the majority of Professor Doctors were draft
dodgers? I would point out that the UK did have "national service" until 1960
and that British servicement post WWII were engaged in the occupation of Germany
and Austria, in India, Burma, what is now Pakistan and Ceylon (Sir Lianka), with
the British Mandate authority in Palestine, in the Korean War, the Malaysian
insurgency, the Aden rebellion and various actions in both West and East Africa.
I do not believe this led to any explosion in the number of grants of PhDs.
In my own experience of the holders of PhDs, there is a vast (and I mean really
vast) difference in the quality of the doctorate granted depending on the
institution which awarded it. I have interviewed a number of holders of Phds in
the fine arts who have written their theses on European paintings or sculpture
over the years and have been amazed at the astonishing ignorance displayed of
the discipline (history of art) in which the doctorate was awarded. While my
survey was completely unscientific, the differences between PhDs in any history
of art subjects awarded by most US universities (with the notable exception of
perhaps half a dozen universities such as Harvard, NY University Institute of
Fine Arts, and Columbia), and those awarded by the handful of UK institutions
which award PhDs in the history of art, suggests very different levels of
knowledge. While the US students knew very well the actual subject of their PhD
thesis, they were surprisingly poorly educated in the general subject of
European art.
This may be a peculiarity of the study of history of art and may not apply in
other disciplines; however I suspect that the relative quality of PhDs does
depend considerably on the institution which awards them. But is it really
necessary for those with advanced degrees to insist upon their use, whichever
institution awarded the degree or distinction? I know of several individuals who
are regulars on this forum and hold such advanced degrees but I do not see them
demanding any special form of address.
I have never thought that anyone holding a PhD should be given some special
respect when the subject on which they are writing is different from that of
their PhD thesis. As I recall from the time when Professor Dr Lindgren wrote a
series of ad hominem attacks on me on this forum, he referred then to his PhD
and it was not granted for any study of heraldry, particularly of Portuguese
heraldry.
Why should polite questions regarding the details of his awards not be
explained, since he was the one who volunteered the initial information here?
Why should the Portuguese questioner not be given a courteous public response to
his politely framed questions? I know very little about Portuguese heraldry and
the authority of the Crown, of royal institutions or of their post 1910
survivors to regulate arms and was reading this debate with considerable
interest for that very reason. I do not know of any other examples of the heads
of non-reigning houses granting arms, other than the special distinction granted
by the late Prince Rainier of the Two Sicilies (as claimant to the headship of
that House) to the late Achille Di Lorenzo. King Umberto II of Italy granted
arms along with new titles, but that practice ended with his death. Perhaps
Grand Dukes Kyrill and Wladimir of Russia granted arms with the handful of
titles thbey conferred, I do not know.
If Dom Duarte does not want these matters discussed (as Mr pritchard avers) then
perhaps he should ask the recipients not to publish them and request that they
keep their diplomas, etc, as confidential, private documents, whose existence
should remain such; it is not the responsibility of the participants on any
internet forum to agree to silence when publicity to the grant is given by the
recipient either here, on a personal web site, or any other register (such as
the Burke's Armorial register). Someone who publishes their achievements -
armorial or otherwise - can expect questions or comments. Why should these be
such a huge problem?
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Guy Stair Sainty
2007-01-09 15:50:21 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@m30g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, Guye
Pennington says...
Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! Guy, I am relatively confident that the Grand Duchess
of Russia has either conferred or recognized arms as a non-seated
royal, and I believe Prof. Stansilaw Dumin is instrumental in executing
that. I don't think it is unusual at all for a non-seated royal to
recognize arms, is it? As head of the royal family of Portugal,
wouldn't HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza have that authority?
Many thanks!
Guye
Thank you for this; I should have included the grand Duchess in the comment
about her father and grandfather having done so. But actually I think it is not
at all common. The patents conferring titles by the Carlist kings of Spain did
not, I think, generally include arms, and they certainly never granted arms
separately. Nor did any of the Italian claimants other than King Umberto II as a
sovereign who never abdicated in conjunction with the grant of a title - he did
grant an augmentation to the arms of Gayre of Gayre and Nigg, but I think that
was a unique example. Rainier of Bourbon-Sicily's grant was of an augmentation,
and not new arms.

I do not know what the practice was regarding the direct authority of the
Portuguese crown to grant arms - that was what I was looking forward to
learning. As we all know, in the UK that authority has been delegated to the
earl Marshall and College of Arms and to the lord Lyon; British Sovereigns have
not directly granted arms for centuries, if at all. In the event of the British
Monarchy ending in a republic, I would doubt very much that any successor to the
headship of the royal house would grant titles or arms - indeed it is very
possible that the heraldic authorities would continue, but subject to some new
law. None of the heads of the German former reigning houses have granted arms,
nor of the French royal house (any claimant), nor Austria or any of the Balkan
states.

What was the practice before 1910? Were there Portuguese kings of Arms with the
responsibility of granting, confirming or registering arms? Was there a law
comparable to that which regulated the Cronistas in Spain? I do not subscribe to
the view that when a monarchy is deposed it somehow acquires a kind of
absolutist power that it did not have before; if titlesor arms were granted
according to certain legal forms and by officers with a function of so doing
then I believe that the exiled head of a royal house should do so as far as
possible by the same means as before the dynasty was deposed. If grants of arms
were made by delegated authority, such as a king of arms, then the head of the
dynasty should appoint a king of arms (if, that is, before the monarchy's fall,
he or she had the authority to appoint one). Portugal was not an absolute
monarchy; Russia was.

I do not know the Portuguese heraldic rules and look forward to learning what
they were and how they are applied today.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
George Lucki
2007-01-09 16:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! Guy, I am relatively confident that the Grand Duchess
of Russia has either conferred or recognized arms as a non-seated
royal, and I believe Prof. Stansilaw Dumin is instrumental in executing
that. I don't think it is unusual at all for a non-seated royal to
recognize arms, is it? As head of the royal family of Portugal,
wouldn't HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza have that authority?
Many thanks!
Guye
Greetings to all in the New Year. Browsing the last several weeks posts I
think some folks must have had bad holiday experiences that have left them a
tad irritable. :0

Guye,
There is an image of Maria Wladimirowna's concession of arms to Stanislaw
Dumin on the www.amateurheralds.org site - look under the patrons tab. As I
understand that practice arms have been conceded to some gentlemen who have
been appointed to Tsarist orders that would have conferred personal or
hereditary nobility although in Stanislaw's case I believe he would have had
a hereditary claim to Polish-Tartar noble arms. I have seen a Portuguese
concession of arms and again this appeared to be a confirmation of
pre-existing arms following from the concession of a minor noble rank - thie
appears similar to the occasional concession of arms in conjunction with
nobility made by Umberto II. Guy Sainty made mention of a concession by
Prince Ranieri but of course the Duke of Castro (the other Constantinian
claimant) had appointed a gentleman now living in Texas as herald to the Two
Scicilies Crown and there have been numerous concessions of 'Two Sicilies
Arms' made by that gentleman. I understand that there were also earlier
Spanish Carlist registrations of arms (wasn't the late Don Cadenas y Vicente
once a Carlist King of Arms?).

In response to a separate part of the thread - as I understand the
associations of the Portuguese Nobility do not grant or confirm arms - their
membership is made up solely of the genealogical representatives of the
historical Portuguese hereditary noble families - who were of course
armigerous. What I don't know is the extent to which the historical
aristocratic families (or their associations) in the countries mentioned -
that is Russia, Portugal or Italy might recognize any newer creations of the
non-reigning heads or pretenders to the various thrones.

Leaving aside the legitimate and more legitimate pretenders it appears that
various self-styled pretenders (or those who take may advantage of claimants
as in the case of the so-called Ethiopian College) have made a business of
concessions of arms. The practice flourished and so we have a College of
Arms associated with the soi-disant Paterno claimant with a whole gaggle of
heraldic officers in tabards http://royalaragonese.homestead.com/index.html
http://royalaragonese.homestead.com/details.html , the curious Ethiopian
College of Heraldry http://www.solomoniccrownheraldry.org/ (apparently
unauthorized by the Crown Council) and its 'Ethiopian baronets' (and
assorted odd titles borne by several of its officers), the herald of the
self-styled St. Stanislas order (Sokolnicki purports now to confer noble
titles as well http://www.swstanislaw.ws/html/nobility_cross.html
http://www.swstanislaw.ws/html/dekrety.html), and of course the completely
silly Hutt River Province Principality in Australia
http://www.hutt-river-province.com/HRP_Royal_College_of_Heraldry.htm which
now appears to be a parody of the British College having discontinued its
franchise to the colourful 'Duke of Avram' http://www.grandduchy.org/rch.htm
who none the less continues to advertise Hutt River grants.

George Lucki
Guy Stair Sainty
2007-01-09 18:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Lucki
Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! Guy, I am relatively confident that the Grand Duchess
of Russia has either conferred or recognized arms as a non-seated
royal, and I believe Prof. Stansilaw Dumin is instrumental in executing
that. I don't think it is unusual at all for a non-seated royal to
recognize arms, is it? As head of the royal family of Portugal,
wouldn't HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza have that authority?
Many thanks!
Guye
Guy Sainty made mention of a concession by
Prince Ranieri but of course the Duke of Castro (the other Constantinian
claimant) had appointed a gentleman now living in Texas as herald to the Two
Scicilies Crown and there have been numerous concessions of 'Two Sicilies
Arms' made by that gentleman.
That is rather my point; once concession by the (pretended) head of the House
and then grants whose valdidity is questionable by a delegated authority. I am
actually extremely dubious about the legitimacy of these - the person concerned
received his appointment many years ago, we do not know what the authority was
that he was given, as far as I know it is not in any way noted in the current
publications of the organisation of Prince Ferdinando and knowing what I do of
their organisation I would be extremely surprised if they had delegated, sine
die, what would be a valuable franchise. In any case, arms in the kingdom of the
Two Sicilies were not regulated by a king of arms appointed by the crown.

I understand that there were also earlier
Post by George Lucki
Spanish Carlist registrations of arms (wasn't the late Don Cadenas y Vicente
once a Carlist King of Arms?).
Cadenas was appointed Cronista by Carlos "VIII" (Archduke Carlos) and this
decree was registered by grace of Franco with the Ministry of Justice. All his
grants, however, were made in accordance with the Spanish laws regulating the
authority of the Cronistas and not in the name of Don Carlos (who had in any
case died by the time Cadenas' took up his legal authority).
Post by George Lucki
In response to a separate part of the thread - as I understand the
associations of the Portuguese Nobility do not grant or confirm arms - their
membership is made up solely of the genealogical representatives of the
historical Portuguese hereditary noble families - who were of course
armigerous. What I don't know is the extent to which the historical
aristocratic families (or their associations) in the countries mentioned -
that is Russia, Portugal or Italy might recognize any newer creations of the
non-reigning heads or pretenders to the various thrones.
There is one oddity I know of, and that relates to the inheritance of arms by a
male from a female heiress; I recall such an inheritance being an issue some
years ago in regard to a Portuguese candidate for the Constantinian Order (I
cannot remember the details).
Post by George Lucki
Leaving aside the legitimate and more legitimate pretenders it appears that
various self-styled pretenders (or those who take may advantage of claimants
as in the case of the so-called Ethiopian College) have made a business of
concessions of arms. The practice flourished and so we have a College of
Arms associated with the soi-disant Paterno claimant with a whole gaggle of
heraldic officers in tabards http://royalaragonese.homestead.com/index.html
http://royalaragonese.homestead.com/details.html , the curious Ethiopian
College of Heraldry http://www.solomoniccrownheraldry.org/ (apparently
unauthorized by the Crown Council) and its 'Ethiopian baronets' (and
assorted odd titles borne by several of its officers), the herald of the
self-styled St. Stanislas order (Sokolnicki purports now to confer noble
titles as well http://www.swstanislaw.ws/html/nobility_cross.html
http://www.swstanislaw.ws/html/dekrety.html), and of course the completely
silly Hutt River Province Principality in Australia
http://www.hutt-river-province.com/HRP_Royal_College_of_Heraldry.htm which
now appears to be a parody of the British College having discontinued its
franchise to the colourful 'Duke of Avram' http://www.grandduchy.org/rch.htm
who none the less continues to advertise Hutt River grants.
In other words this is more practiced by the false claimants than the genuine
ones.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
George Lucki
2007-01-09 18:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
Post by George Lucki
Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! Guy, I am relatively confident that the Grand Duchess
of Russia has either conferred or recognized arms as a non-seated
royal, and I believe Prof. Stansilaw Dumin is instrumental in executing
that. I don't think it is unusual at all for a non-seated royal to
recognize arms, is it? As head of the royal family of Portugal,
wouldn't HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza have that authority?
Many thanks!
Guye
Guy Sainty made mention of a concession by
Prince Ranieri but of course the Duke of Castro (the other Constantinian
claimant) had appointed a gentleman now living in Texas as herald to the Two
Scicilies Crown and there have been numerous concessions of 'Two Sicilies
Arms' made by that gentleman.
That is rather my point; once concession by the (pretended) head of the House
and then grants whose valdidity is questionable by a delegated authority. I am
actually extremely dubious about the legitimacy of these - the person concerned
received his appointment many years ago, we do not know what the authority was
that he was given, as far as I know it is not in any way noted in the current
publications of the organisation of Prince Ferdinando and knowing what I do of
their organisation I would be extremely surprised if they had delegated, sine
die, what would be a valuable franchise. In any case, arms in the kingdom of the
Two Sicilies were not regulated by a king of arms appointed by the crown.
I understand that there were also earlier
Post by George Lucki
Spanish Carlist registrations of arms (wasn't the late Don Cadenas y Vicente
once a Carlist King of Arms?).
Cadenas was appointed Cronista by Carlos "VIII" (Archduke Carlos) and this
decree was registered by grace of Franco with the Ministry of Justice. All his
grants, however, were made in accordance with the Spanish laws regulating the
authority of the Cronistas and not in the name of Don Carlos (who had in any
case died by the time Cadenas' took up his legal authority).
Post by George Lucki
In response to a separate part of the thread - as I understand the
associations of the Portuguese Nobility do not grant or confirm arms - their
membership is made up solely of the genealogical representatives of the
historical Portuguese hereditary noble families - who were of course
armigerous. What I don't know is the extent to which the historical
aristocratic families (or their associations) in the countries mentioned -
that is Russia, Portugal or Italy might recognize any newer creations of the
non-reigning heads or pretenders to the various thrones.
There is one oddity I know of, and that relates to the inheritance of arms by a
male from a female heiress; I recall such an inheritance being an issue some
years ago in regard to a Portuguese candidate for the Constantinian Order (I
cannot remember the details).
Post by George Lucki
Leaving aside the legitimate and more legitimate pretenders it appears that
various self-styled pretenders (or those who take may advantage of claimants
as in the case of the so-called Ethiopian College) have made a business of
concessions of arms. The practice flourished and so we have a College of
Arms associated with the soi-disant Paterno claimant with a whole gaggle of
heraldic officers in tabards
http://royalaragonese.homestead.com/index.html
http://royalaragonese.homestead.com/details.html , the curious Ethiopian
College of Heraldry http://www.solomoniccrownheraldry.org/ (apparently
unauthorized by the Crown Council) and its 'Ethiopian baronets' (and
assorted odd titles borne by several of its officers), the herald of the
self-styled St. Stanislas order (Sokolnicki purports now to confer noble
titles as well http://www.swstanislaw.ws/html/nobility_cross.html
http://www.swstanislaw.ws/html/dekrety.html), and of course the completely
silly Hutt River Province Principality in Australia
http://www.hutt-river-province.com/HRP_Royal_College_of_Heraldry.htm which
now appears to be a parody of the British College having discontinued its
franchise to the colourful 'Duke of Avram'
http://www.grandduchy.org/rch.htm
who none the less continues to advertise Hutt River grants.
In other words this is more practiced by the false claimants than the genuine
ones.
Absolutely - but then the same applies to the granting of 'noble' titles
(relatively rare by genuine claimants and wholesale by others) or the award
of 'chivalric orders' - anything done by a legitimate pretender is going to
be overdone by the false claimants. That hopefully does not diminish the
proper actions of legitimate claimants. What is proper is of course a matter
in the context of the rules and traditions of a particular monarchy (with
some latitude for the changed conditions of non-regnancy).
George Lucki
James Dempster
2007-01-09 20:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
I take your point about 'personal' Chairs. As far as my never meeting a
professor, I read Law, maybe there weren't too many professors knocking
about, or maybe as is more likely (it was the 70s) my memory has been
effected detrimentally by prolonged exposure to Young's Bitter when I
should have been at lectures:)
Admittedly the history department at Aberdeen did have two substantive
professors at the time (the former head of department had become
faculty dean but was still teaching).

However, I was taught courses by professors in other departments too.
Law may have been different. I certainly know that in my day you were
much more likely to be taught by professors and get on good terms with
them in smaller departments (history and statistics spring to mind)
than in some of the big departments.

By the end of my final year I was on first name terms with said
faculty dean (always handy) whilst friends in big science departments
couldn't say that about much more junior members of staff.

I know what you mean about Young's Bitter, except in my day and place
it would have been Devanha XXX or XB, or if you didn't want to do
*any* work a concoction called a "Happy Day" which involved a beer
called Fowler's Wee Heavy.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
professor
2007-01-08 17:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel

Yes, I agree degrees and titles come in all sizes. Call me if you wish
to discuss this issue. The number is 1-662-563-7554. I will speak with
anyone with concerns over my arms via the phone.

Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by m***@gmail.com
Dear Sirs,
It could be added that Prof. Carl Edward Lindgrem considers himself
"Fidalgo Cavaleiro da Casa Real (A courtesy grant of nobility)" in its
webpage.
This is an honour conceded by the Head of State and I thought it was
never granted again after the revolution of October 5, 1910.
Since I legitimately descend through my strict male line from several
Fidalgos Cavaleiros da Casa Real (since 1675), I would appreciate if
you could explain how and when was this degree attributed, because I
would have the right to inscribe my name in the register.
Best regards
Miguel da Cunha
Dear Sir,
Being Portuguese and reasonably acquainted with these matters, I would
like to ask you if you could clarify some points, in the knowledge that
my enquiry is honourable and in good-faith.
It appears to me you received a Diploma from the Order of St Michael of
the Wing, not a proper Grant of Arms as such, since the Order issues
diplomas of membership, but is not known to issue Grants of Arms, since
this is not exactly an attribute of the Order.
You also mention a seal of Vila-Viçosa. This is a separate Dynastic
Order, so it is not clear what this seal is doing on a diploma from St
Michael of Wing.
I note that you mention [quote] "The document usually..." and further
down [quote] "As always...". I find this interesting because you appear
to be very familiar with other precedents, prior to your Diploma, or as
you call it, your Grant of Arms.
Upon satisfying my curiosity, I accidentally bumped into your website
(http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html), where I note the arms
granted by the Cronista Don Vicente de Cadenas are different from the
Arms depicted in the Portuguese Diploma. In the Portuguese Diploma,
your arms exhibit a Nobility Coronet. I would be most grateful if you
could clarify how this Coronet came about, the reason being that in
Portugal and indeed Portuguese Heraldry, Nobility Coronets and Crowns
are absolutely reserved for Historical Nobility of Portugal and never
awarded to foreign armigers. Naturally, your case may be the honourable
exception, but it would be useful to understand better what happened in
your particular arms.
There is a degree of confusion in regards to these issues for specific
reasons, which I can explain. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza is not known
to issue Grants of Arms and this is common knowledge among the vast
majority of Portuguese Monarchists. Furthermore, Heraldry is
liberalised in Portugal since 1910, but Heraldry pertaining Portuguese
Nobility is regulated by an institution called INP-INSTITUTO DA NOBREZA
PORTUGUESA and by ANHP-ASSOCIAÇÃO DA NOBREZA HISTORICA DE PORTUGAL.
All Arms Grants issued are indeed issued by these two institutions and
ONLY by these two institutions and ONLY renew existing Arms Grants.
Neither of them issues new grants, least of all grants to foreign
armigers, as this falls out of their scope of activity.
On the other hand, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Dynastic Orders of
Portugal (St Michael of the Wing, Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila
Viçosa and St. Isabel) do award Membership Diplomas in the various
grades pertaining the Orders, but these diplomas DO NOT confer Nobility
to anyone, and they DO NOT confirm valid Arms to Armigers who may
become members of these Orders. This is at the least, common knowledge
to any Portuguese Citizen, especially Portuguese Monarchists.
I would therefore be very keen to understand better your particular
situation, if you feel you would like to share it. As I said above, my
enquiry is in complete good faith and honourable. My only objective in
this discussion is to clarify and better understand the apparent
conflict between what is known in Portugal as genuine practice and what
happened with your Diploma, or Grant, as you appear to have it.
Yours sincerely
L Guerreiro
Post by professor
Merry Christmas,
The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.
Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by s***@pacbell.net
Hello
I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290
It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.
-Sebastian Nelson
p***@hotmail.com
2007-01-08 21:57:11 UTC
Permalink
With you knowledge of the laws of Portugal, you should know that the
six 'foros', Fidalgo Cavaleiro da Casa Real, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa
Real, Fidalgo Moço da Casa Real, Cavaleiro Fidalgo da Casa Real,
Escudeiro Fidalgo da Casa Real, Moço da Camara da Casa Real were at
the most only valid for three generations after which they had to be
reconfirmed.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Dear Sirs,
It could be added that Prof. Carl Edward Lindgrem considers himself
"Fidalgo Cavaleiro da Casa Real (A courtesy grant of nobility)" in its
webpage.
This is an honour conceded by the Head of State and I thought it was
never granted again after the revolution of October 5, 1910.
Since I legitimately descend through my strict male line from several
Fidalgos Cavaleiros da Casa Real (since 1675), I would appreciate if
you could explain how and when was this degree attributed, because I
would have the right to inscribe my name in the register.
Best regards
Miguel da Cunha
Dear Sir,
Being Portuguese and reasonably acquainted with these matters, I would
like to ask you if you could clarify some points, in the knowledge that
my enquiry is honourable and in good-faith.
It appears to me you received a Diploma from the Order of St Michael of
the Wing, not a proper Grant of Arms as such, since the Order issues
diplomas of membership, but is not known to issue Grants of Arms, since
this is not exactly an attribute of the Order.
You also mention a seal of Vila-Viçosa. This is a separate Dynastic
Order, so it is not clear what this seal is doing on a diploma from St
Michael of Wing.
I note that you mention [quote] "The document usually..." and further
down [quote] "As always...". I find this interesting because you appear
to be very familiar with other precedents, prior to your Diploma, or as
you call it, your Grant of Arms.
Upon satisfying my curiosity, I accidentally bumped into your website
(http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html), where I note the arms
granted by the Cronista Don Vicente de Cadenas are different from the
Arms depicted in the Portuguese Diploma. In the Portuguese Diploma,
your arms exhibit a Nobility Coronet. I would be most grateful if you
could clarify how this Coronet came about, the reason being that in
Portugal and indeed Portuguese Heraldry, Nobility Coronets and Crowns
are absolutely reserved for Historical Nobility of Portugal and never
awarded to foreign armigers. Naturally, your case may be the honourable
exception, but it would be useful to understand better what happened in
your particular arms.
There is a degree of confusion in regards to these issues for specific
reasons, which I can explain. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza is not known
to issue Grants of Arms and this is common knowledge among the vast
majority of Portuguese Monarchists. Furthermore, Heraldry is
liberalised in Portugal since 1910, but Heraldry pertaining Portuguese
Nobility is regulated by an institution called INP-INSTITUTO DA NOBREZA
PORTUGUESA and by ANHP-ASSOCIAÇÃO DA NOBREZA HISTORICA DE PORTUGAL.
All Arms Grants issued are indeed issued by these two institutions and
ONLY by these two institutions and ONLY renew existing Arms Grants.
Neither of them issues new grants, least of all grants to foreign
armigers, as this falls out of their scope of activity.
On the other hand, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Dynastic Orders of
Portugal (St Michael of the Wing, Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila
Viçosa and St. Isabel) do award Membership Diplomas in the various
grades pertaining the Orders, but these diplomas DO NOT confer Nobility
to anyone, and they DO NOT confirm valid Arms to Armigers who may
become members of these Orders. This is at the least, common knowledge
to any Portuguese Citizen, especially Portuguese Monarchists.
I would therefore be very keen to understand better your particular
situation, if you feel you would like to share it. As I said above, my
enquiry is in complete good faith and honourable. My only objective in
this discussion is to clarify and better understand the apparent
conflict between what is known in Portugal as genuine practice and what
happened with your Diploma, or Grant, as you appear to have it.
Yours sincerely
L Guerreiro
Post by professor
Merry Christmas,
The Duke still gives Portuguese grants of arms. However, the procedure
is very limited. I received a Carta de Concessao de Armas - Passada a
Favor do Ex. mo Sehor Carl Edwin Lindgren e Corder & Sua Ex. ma Familia
Serie I - 1/2003 (Segunda Emissao - Alterada. The document itself is
very beautiful and consists of a Burgundy wine color leather case with
gold tassel designed by Miserico'rdia Desantar'em (sorry for the lack
of correct fonts). The document usually consists of 10-16 pages and is
written on tan paper separated by papyrus type paper. The work contains
a full genealogy and a listing of all orders and titles. Each page is
numbered and signed with the last pages dedicated to the Brasao de
Armas. Most pages are signed and sealed by the Duke, Chancellor, and
Vice-Chancellor of St. Michael of the Wing, Pages also contain the
seal of Vila Vicosa and various other signatures including a notary
signature and seal by Comendador Doutor Jorge Manuel da Assuncao
Ferreira da Costa Rosa. As always the Vice Chancellor Carlos Evaristo
did an outstanding job on the design and production of the document.
Prof. Carl Edwin Lindgren
Post by s***@pacbell.net
Hello
I obtained a book called "Cartas de Brasao de Armas" by Nuno
Borrego from interlibrary loan. It was published in 2003 and contains
almost one thousand transcriptions of Portuguese grants of arms from
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=290
It is a wonderful resource and if you can get hold of a copy I think
you will find it very interesting.
-Sebastian Nelson
p***@hotmail.com
2007-01-09 18:31:44 UTC
Permalink
The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna grants new arms to those persons
who have received honours from her.

I am not aware of the Duke granting new arms but rather issuing
confirmations and recognitions. I believe that the strongest legal case
for this stems not from being the Heir to the Portuguese Throne but
rather from the Perpetual Charter of Rights granted centuries ago to
the head of the Most Serene House of Braganca by the reigning Royal
House of Avis. These perogatives were never surrendered to the Crown,
and thus survived the overthrow of the monarchy in 1910.
Post by Guye Pennington
Greetings, all! Guy, I am relatively confident that the Grand Duchess
of Russia has either conferred or recognized arms as a non-seated
royal, and I believe Prof. Stansilaw Dumin is instrumental in executing
that. I don't think it is unusual at all for a non-seated royal to
recognize arms, is it? As head of the royal family of Portugal,
wouldn't HRH Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza have that authority?
Many thanks!
Guye
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
Post by p***@hotmail.com
One should remember that during the Vietnam War, many tens of thousands
of men avoided military service by continuing their advanced higher
education. The effect of this was that the US had very large numbers of
men with doctoral degrees of every type, many of whom sought careers in
the universities. I suppose that if the UK had a draft policy similar
to the US, most every lecture that you attended would have been given
by a holder of a doctoral degree.
So one should consider that the majority of Professor Doctors were draft
dodgers? I would point out that the UK did have "national service" until 1960
and that British servicement post WWII were engaged in the occupation of Germany
and Austria, in India, Burma, what is now Pakistan and Ceylon (Sir Lianka), with
the British Mandate authority in Palestine, in the Korean War, the Malaysian
insurgency, the Aden rebellion and various actions in both West and East Africa.
I do not believe this led to any explosion in the number of grants of PhDs.
In my own experience of the holders of PhDs, there is a vast (and I mean really
vast) difference in the quality of the doctorate granted depending on the
institution which awarded it. I have interviewed a number of holders of Phds in
the fine arts who have written their theses on European paintings or sculpture
over the years and have been amazed at the astonishing ignorance displayed of
the discipline (history of art) in which the doctorate was awarded. While my
survey was completely unscientific, the differences between PhDs in any history
of art subjects awarded by most US universities (with the notable exception of
perhaps half a dozen universities such as Harvard, NY University Institute of
Fine Arts, and Columbia), and those awarded by the handful of UK institutions
which award PhDs in the history of art, suggests very different levels of
knowledge. While the US students knew very well the actual subject of their PhD
thesis, they were surprisingly poorly educated in the general subject of
European art.
This may be a peculiarity of the study of history of art and may not apply in
other disciplines; however I suspect that the relative quality of PhDs does
depend considerably on the institution which awards them. But is it really
necessary for those with advanced degrees to insist upon their use, whichever
institution awarded the degree or distinction? I know of several individuals who
are regulars on this forum and hold such advanced degrees but I do not see them
demanding any special form of address.
I have never thought that anyone holding a PhD should be given some special
respect when the subject on which they are writing is different from that of
their PhD thesis. As I recall from the time when Professor Dr Lindgren wrote a
series of ad hominem attacks on me on this forum, he referred then to his PhD
and it was not granted for any study of heraldry, particularly of Portuguese
heraldry.
Why should polite questions regarding the details of his awards not be
explained, since he was the one who volunteered the initial information here?
Why should the Portuguese questioner not be given a courteous public response to
his politely framed questions? I know very little about Portuguese heraldry and
the authority of the Crown, of royal institutions or of their post 1910
survivors to regulate arms and was reading this debate with considerable
interest for that very reason. I do not know of any other examples of the heads
of non-reigning houses granting arms, other than the special distinction granted
by the late Prince Rainier of the Two Sicilies (as claimant to the headship of
that House) to the late Achille Di Lorenzo. King Umberto II of Italy granted
arms along with new titles, but that practice ended with his death. Perhaps
Grand Dukes Kyrill and Wladimir of Russia granted arms with the handful of
titles thbey conferred, I do not know.
If Dom Duarte does not want these matters discussed (as Mr pritchard avers) then
perhaps he should ask the recipients not to publish them and request that they
keep their diplomas, etc, as confidential, private documents, whose existence
should remain such; it is not the responsibility of the participants on any
internet forum to agree to silence when publicity to the grant is given by the
recipient either here, on a personal web site, or any other register (such as
the Burke's Armorial register). Someone who publishes their achievements -
armorial or otherwise - can expect questions or comments. Why should these be
such a huge problem?
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Guy Stair Sainty
2007-01-09 19:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna grants new arms to those persons
who have received honours from her.
I am not aware of the Duke granting new arms but rather issuing
confirmations and recognitions.
What does that mean, then, if the original grant was by an invented authority or
by a claimant to a throne with no heraldic traditions at all? Surely the
Portuguese confirmation would be the basis then for any legitimacy? Yet in
Spain, Great Britain, and most other western European states, the authority to
grant or confirm arms was always delegated. The Russian tradition is different,
since the autocratic powers of the Monarch were so extensive. In Portugal, in
contrast, even before the constitution, the powers of the Crown were quite
severely curtailed by all manner of conventions. Hence, for example (as in
Spain) it was impossible for the Portuguese sovereign to grant a title that
would descend to all male line descendants - indeed, it is interesting to note
that in Spain (which in this case is extrremely similar to Portugal), holders of
titles designated to descend to all male descendants who have applied for them
to be recognized in Spain have had to accept the immediate limitation of descent
to their primogeniture heirs and not according to the original patent of
creation.

This even applies to those titles granted by the kings of Spain as sovereigns of
the Netherlands, for example. Thus one may see the workings of the constraints
of tradition.

I believe that the strongest legal case
Post by p***@hotmail.com
for this stems not from being the Heir to the Portuguese Throne but
rather from the Perpetual Charter of Rights granted centuries ago to
the head of the Most Serene House of Braganca by the reigning Royal
House of Avis. These perogatives were never surrendered to the Crown,
and thus survived the overthrow of the monarchy in 1910.
On the contrary, that implies that the duke of Braganza acts not as the heir to
the throne of Portugal but as a vassal thereof, suggesting that some other
person is the claimant to the throne. This is quite wrong, since in every
European monarchy (including Portugal) titles, honours and privielges granted by
the crown merged with the crown when the grantee or his or her heirs inherited
the crown. The title of Duke of Braganza is not a noble title, but a title of
pretension, like that of count of Paris, duke of Anjou, duke of Calabria, and of
Castro, etc. I cannot see any legal justification for the duke of Braganza
holding any position or authority delegated by a prior king to one of his
non-regnant ancestors - all such privileges expired in 1640 when the duke of
Braganza became King. It would make a nonsense of the concept of monarchical
authority if it was otherwise [the same would not apply, for example, to a power
delegated by a foreign sovereign and relating to powers in his dominions - thus,
for example, the dukes of Savoy could hold the position of Imperial Vicar, and
several German sovereigns hold hereditary imperial titles). Whatever authority
the duke of Braganza enjoys is as head of the Royal House of Portugal and as
repository of all the powers of the Crown existing at the end of the Monarchy in
1910, or perhaps 1834, - at least those that have not been acquired by the
presidents of the Portuguese republic (for example, in the latter case, the
grand magistery of the historic Portuguese royal Orders oither than the Order of
the Immaculate Conception of Vila Vicosa).

I am not sure how the Crown granted titles and what constraints (other than an
inability to grant palatine titles that descend to all male lines) existed, or
what was required to validate the grant of titles and arms. I would be pleased
to be enlightened and I am sure so would others here.

Unfortunately those holding the august position of heads of royal houses are
sometimes poorly advised on these matters and errors may soemtimes be made which
bring into question the validity of particular acts.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Joseph McMillan
2007-01-09 18:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Isn't it true that all lecturers at American universities are referred
to as 'professor'?
I don't know the British system of faculty appointments all that well,
but the basic hierarchy in the US (working from the bottom) is
instructor, assistant professor, associate professor, and professor.

An instructor typically is either a doctoral candidate finishing his
dissertation or a relatively newly-minted Ph.D. pursuing postdoctoral
work. Instructor is usually a temporary appointment and involves
only teaching of undergraduates. Instructors are formally addressed as
Mr. or Ms., but in ordinary conversation by first name more often than
not.

An assistant professor usually, although not invariably, has a
doctorate, perhaps two to three years of post-doctoral work. This is a
probationary appointment that leads to consideration for tenure after
5-7 years based primarily on performanced, especially published
research. The percentage of assistant professors granted tenure
depends on the institution and the discipline.

If an assistant professor is granted tenure, he is promoted to
associate professor.

After some further period of teaching and research, depending on
availability of positions, the associate professor may be promoted to
professor. Typically there are only a few full professors in any given
department. Especially senior or very distinguished full professors
may later be appointed to a named, endowed chair, or given a title such
as distinguished professor, university professor, etc.

All the above may correctly be addressed as "professor," although the
customs followed vary from institution to institution.

Joseph McMillan
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