Conjoint matrimonial Arms

[fatso]

Loading Image...

The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?


fatso

[The Chief]

http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?
fatso

Dear "Fatso",
You have a second problem:
"The specified image does not exist"
Regards,
The Chief

[Odysseus]

In article

Loading Image...

<snip>

"The specified image does not exist"

Check the link as shown in your browser's address field for missing
characters at the end; you were probably caught by text wrap. Or click
the TinyURL Joseph provided, quoted below.

In article

Try this URL: http://tinyurl.com/y9592kz - easier to deal with.

[Greg]

http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?
fatso

My question would be; though the artisan demonstrated popularity, is
it necessary that this design is not assumed for the sake of art?

I'm learning that heraldry around the world was treated very casually;
for king and broom pusher alike, and it ocurrs that there has always
been costume jewlery. This kind of thing must have been happening long
before the Bucket Shop generation and I would say, that be the
evidence it would have been very widespread.

As I understand however, I'm I'm sure I'll be corrected, there were
some pretty stiff penalties for misuse. Iwould think as well that
there might other ways that assumed arms were used. It would make an
interesting history.

[Joseph McMillan]

http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?

Try this URL: http://tinyurl.com/y9592kz - easier to deal with.

Others here know a great deal more about Central European heraldry
than I do, but I would say that you seem to be making some unsafe
assumption about the arms, particularly that the format indicates a
married couple. As far as I know, quarterings and multiple helms and
crests in arms in areas of the former Holy Roman Empire do not
necessarily indicate a combination of pre-existing arms by marriage.
They might indicate a matrimonial alliance, but could also reflect the
inheritance or acquisition of additional feudal properties, holding of
an office, or even merely an untitled person's elevation to a barony
in the Briefadel. Two helms, for example, would be typical for a
baron or a hereditary knight. The barred helms also should suggest a
member of the nobility.

But that doesn't mean that the arms actually are those of such a
person--as far as I know there was never any enforcement of heraldic
laws in Austria in the sense of punishing someone for using arms that
were "above their station." It's quite possible that anyone with
enough money to commission work from a court silversmith could have
devised arms like these for himself and used them with impunity. The
late Carl Alexander von Volborth's "Heraldry: Customs, Rules, and
Styles" discusses the trend among many in the old nobility during the
late 19th century of simplifying arms back to their medieval format
precisely to disassociate themselves from the heraldic excesses of the
parvenus.

All that said, the arms look very familiar. They appear to have two
quarters with an arm issuing from a cloud in flank and holding a sheaf
of three arrows and the other two quarters with a dimidiated eagle.
Perhaps someone with access to Siebmacher will be able to find them;
my search of Rietstap didn't turn up anything, but I might well have
missed it.

Joseph McMillan

[Turenne]

The coat of arms granted to Amschel, Solomon, Carl, and James
Rothschild in 1816 by Francis II of Austria had as charges: a half
eagle and an arm bearing four arrows. The de Worms family, who were
kinsmen of the Rothschilds, had a hand grasping three arrows in their
coat of arms to represent the three de Worms brothers. Could these
arms be linked?

Richard Lichten

[Joseph McMillan]

Post by Turenne
The coat of arms granted to Amschel, Solomon, Carl, and James
Rothschild in 1816 by Francis II of Austria had as charges: a half
eagle and an arm bearing four arrows.

Doh! Guess that's why this looked familiar!

[Turenne]

Doh!  Guess that's why this looked familiar!

Easy one to miss Joseph! Do you think that the arms are the
Rothschild's?

Richard

[Joseph McMillan]

Post by Turenne

Doh!  Guess that's why this looked familiar!

Easy one to miss Joseph! Do you think that the arms are the
Rothschild's?

No, because they lack the key element: the red inescutcheon with the
silver targe on it. Without it, the arms don't say "rot(h) Schild."

Joseph McMillan

[Roderick]

Post by Turenne

Doh!  Guess that's why this looked familiar!

Easy one to miss Joseph! Do you think that the arms are the
Rothschild's?

No, because they lack the key element:  the red inescutcheon with the
silver targe on it.  Without it, the arms don't say "rot(h) Schild."
Joseph McMillan

In case anyone is curious, the five rounded lobe hallmark is the 1867
and later Austrian quality mark for silver 950/1000 pure. The
silversmith's mark VMS stands for Vincent Mayer und Sohne of Vienna,
Jewellers to the the Imperial and Royal Court of the Emperor of
Austria.

[Turenne]

No, because they lack the key element:  the red inescutcheon with the
silver targe on it.  Without it, the arms don't say "rot(h) Schild."

The Austrian Herald's College made life difficult for the Rothschilds.
They said that, as untitled nobility, the Rothschilds could have a
helmet but not a coronet. The eagle alluded to Austria, the lion to
Hesse-Kassel, and the leopard to England: the College said it was not
in its power to use charges from other sovereign countries' arms. The
5 arrows symbolize the 5 brothers: but since Nathan was excluded (he
was British) they could only have 4 arrows. The supporters were
rejected, **as well as the inescutcheon**, as the privilege of the
titled nobility. A patent for the modified arms was finally granted
on March 25, 1817.

Richard L

[Turenne]

Sorry: Five years later (1822) the Rothschilds were raised to baronial
rank and their arms were amended as follows: 1) Or, an eagle displayed
sable. 2) Azure, an arm issuing from the sinister flank proper,
holding five arrows points downward argent. 3) As in 2), the arm
issuing from dexter. 4) Or, a lion gules. Over all an escutcheon:
gules, an oval target with pointed center argent per bend-sinister. 3
crests: 1) a mullet or enhanced or between two horns per fess
alternately or and sable, sable and or; 2) an eagle disp. sable; 3) 3
ostrich feathers, one argent and two azure. Motto: concordia,
integritas, industria.

I can't help but feel that with one or two exceptions the arms are
remarkably similar to those depicted.

Richard

[Howard]

Post by Turenne
Sorry: Five years later (1822) the Rothschilds were raised to baronial
rank and their arms were amended as follows: 1) Or, an eagle displayed
sable. 2) Azure, an arm issuing from the sinister flank proper,
holding five arrows points downward argent. 3) As in 2), the arm
gules, an oval target with pointed center argent per bend-sinister. 3
crests: 1) a mullet or enhanced or between two horns per fess
alternately or and sable, sable and or; 2) an eagle disp. sable; 3) 3
ostrich feathers, one argent and two azure. Motto: concordia,
integritas, industria.
I can't help but feel that with one or two exceptions the arms are
remarkably similar to those depicted.
Richard

Although there are some similarities the illustrated arms on the
silverware are not those of the Rothschilds.

I have not the time to search but I would start with the 7 volume work
by le Cte Théodore de Renesse: "Dictionnaire des figures héraldiques",
Bruxelles 1894-1903, especially tome 2, 1895. This is an ordinary of
Reitstap's "Armorial Général". It is available on Gallica. Pages
207-299 have dextrochère on quartered arms and 315-319 have
senestrochère on quartered arms.

Derek Howard

[fatso]

Howard wrote:

Gentlemen, many thanks for your interest and replies.
It so happens that the financial storm in the USA has allowed the above
set of silverware
to come to the surface and I have scooped it up, gratefully, on ebay. I
have remained ever since
in awe to the puzzling conjoint Arms. The Noble Count, a member of the
religious Order in the
USA, has volunteered to solve the problem for me- and failed evidently
as I have not heard from
him again. I have spent some hours searching the list of the Provinces
of Austro-Hungarian Empire
and tried to match their Arms to the putative owners of my cutlery. To
no avail, alas.
The Rothschilds would fit in splendidly here, I think. I have the
problem with them, though: they were Jewish
wheeler-dealers of distinction, not short of the bob or two. Why would a
Rothschild have to go to the pawn shop
or some such establishement in order to raise a miserly thousand dollars
or so for my dozen of spoons and forks?
The plot thickens as they say.

As an easy to solve puzzle, please have a look at this Coat of Arms,
adorning my other treasured set:
Loading Image...
It does carry the House Order of Heinrich der Lowe and the Order of the
Garter.
Who did it belong to, before it did fall into my unworthy lap?

fatso

[fatso]

Post by fatso
Gentlemen, many thanks for your interest and replies.
It so happens that the financial storm in the USA has allowed the
above set of silverware
to come to the surface and I have scooped it up, gratefully, on ebay.
I have remained ever since
in awe to the puzzling conjoint Arms. The Noble Count, a member of the
religious Order in the
USA, has volunteered to solve the problem for me- and failed evidently
as I have not heard from
him again. I have spent some hours searching the list of the Provinces
of Austro-Hungarian Empire
and tried to match their Arms to the putative owners of my cutlery. To
no avail, alas.
The Rothschilds would fit in splendidly here, I think. I have the
problem with them, though: they were Jewish
wheeler-dealers of distinction, not short of the bob or two. Why would
a Rothschild have to go to the pawn shop
or some such establishement in order to raise a miserly thousand
dollars or so for my dozen of spoons and forks?
The plot thickens as they say.
As an easy to solve puzzle, please have a look at this Coat of Arms,
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=BrunswickArms.jpg
It does carry the House Order of Heinrich der Lowe and the Order of
the Garter.
Who did it belong to, before it did fall into my unworthy lap?
fatso

I have included a better picture of the Arms in the original question:
Loading Image...

Google does seem to provide the answer in the Jewish Encyclopaedia: it
seems to be a union
in matrimony betwen one of those names: de Worms, Rothschild and Pirbright.

fatso

[Turenne]

fatso wrote;

...in matrimony betwen one of those names: de Worms, Rothschild and Pirbright.

I'm sure I mentioned that a month ago.

Pirbright is the territorial designation Henry de Worms chose when he
was created a baron in 1895. Pirbright was a grandson of Nathan Meyer
Rothschild.

http://normandyhistorians.co.uk/aandp18.html

Richard L